D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't see how anyone can in all honesty say that spellcasting is just one feature.

only if your trying to pretend the wizard doesn't have MANY more options then any 2 fighters put togather.

 

[jdrakeh]

Um, good for you?

I don't think that's relevant to the discussion.

It's what my complex fighter build looks like, so it's literally answering the question posed in the OP.

 

[DND_Reborn]

only if your trying to pretend the wizard doesn't have MANY more options then any 2 fighters put togather.

Well, "options" or "features"?

Options? Sure, with about 300 spells, they do.

Features? Nope, they are about the same: Fighter 29, Wizard 29-31, by my reckoning anyway.

FWIW, this is how I see the break-down:

WIZARD

1. Spellcasting
2. Ritual Spells*
3. Arcane Recovery
4. ASI (x5)
5. Arcane Tradition Feature (x5)
6. Spell Mastery**
7. Signature Spell***

NOTES: * Although part of Spellcasting, it is different from other Ritual Spells, allowing Wizards to cast spells without preparing them. IMO this makes it powerful enough to be a separate feature from Spellcasting.

** At-will 1st- AND 2nd-level spells could be counted separately.

*** Two extra 3rd-level slots IMO could be counted separately.

COUNT: Depending on how you count those options, you have 15-17 features.

FIGHTER

1. Fighting Style
2. Second Wind
3. Action Surge
4. Martial Archetype (x5)
5. ASI (x7)
6. Extra Attack
7. Indomitable

COUNT: 17 features.

By my count (anyway) they are fairly even...

UNLESS...

If you want to count access to each spell level (9 in total) instead of 1 (spellcasting), then I would also at least count Extra Attack as 3 instead of 1, but either way the Wizards jump to 23-25 vs. the Fighter at 19.

Overall, I don't think I would count additional uses, just new uses.

This is why I said you could count Spell Mastery as possibly two (two different at-will spells) and Signature Spell as two, so the range was 15-17 because of this.

So, I am not counting additional uses of Action Surge or Indomitable, nor more spell slots since Spellcasting really is the feature.

I suppose technically you could also count proficiencies as features as well:

Fighter: +10 (three armors, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons, two saves, two skills) vs.
Wizard: +5 (some weapons, two saves, two skills).

Which, if you count access to each new spell level as a separate feature, would bring the totals to:

Fighter: 29
Wizard 28-30

Pretty darn even by that reckoning anyway...

I agree.

While I won't count every single spell or spell slot, I do think counting access to each spell level and ritual casting works as 10 features (cantrips would make it 11, which I didn't count before).

IMO it is like counting Extra Attack (2) and Extra Attack (3) as separate from Extra Attack.

 

[Maxperson]

there is a chart you can look at.... it's called the wizard

And it has 1 feature called spellcasting. So if you're not going to give fighters their options and only count the base ability, you have to do the same to wizard and they lose most of their options.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And it has 1 feature called spellcasting.

it has each level of spell listed right next to that.

So if you're not going to give fighters their options and only count the base ability, you have to do the same to wizard and they lose most of their options.

I didn't take anything from fighter I even offered to go through both subclasses with you...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

we were doing level 9, and you get arcane tradition at 2nd and 6th you get martial archtype at 3rd and 7th....

lets go throguh the PHB (I am discounting eldritch knight as the exact issue is it becomes a wizard light) so I have 2 fighter subclasses and a ton of wizard...

champion gets remarkable athlete and improved crit... so 1 or 4 depending on if we count each stat for athlete...
battlemaster gets 5 dice (the equivalent of spell slots) student of war and know your enemy... so 7

Abjurer gets arcane ward. savant and protective ward so 3
god I don't want to do this there are 8 more they all get 'about' 3...

so lets go back to those base ones

the wizard at 9th level gets 4 cantrips, 4 1st level spells 3 2nd level spells 3 3rd level spells 3 4th level spells and a 5th levels spell arcane recover and 2 subclass features for a total of 21 class features
the fighter gets fighting style, second wind, action surge extra attack, indomitable, and 2 subclass features and a bonus ASI/feat for a total of 8

so wizard had 21 but subtract 2 subclass for 19 +3 for subclass... 22 total
fighter had 8 -2 for subclass is 6 +4 or 7 so 10 or 13

 

[Krachek]

I would take a cleric with the war domain
and pretend that my spells are non magical but rather leadership, tactical, insight, medic as needed.
A lot of spells can be fluff into non magical power including revivify, death ward, spiritual weapon that can be simply an extra attack, and so on. That can be push relatively far without any major adaptation.
That can be done even as easily with a paladin.

 

[Haplo781]

I would take a cleric with the war domain
and pretend that my spells are non magical but rather leadership, tactical, insight, medic as needed.
A lot of spells can be fluff into non magical power including revivify, death ward, spiritual weapon that can be simply an extra attack, and so on. That can be push relatively far without any major adaptation.
That can be done even as easily with a paladin.

Bugsbunnyno.gif

 

[Vaalingrade]

Pointing out that Spellcasting is a single feature is not making any point at all.

 

[Eubani]

Pointing out that Spellcasting is a single feature is not making any point at all.

It makes a point on the level of integrity that will be maintained in the discussion. What is the point some may ask, that is for real and meaningful discussion to take place you need to trust the other side is engaging in the topic truthfully.