what ECL is this? +2 or +3 or other?

[Geist]

this race is being made for a campaign im in and i need to make sure the ECL is set right for it.



the ECL im trying to get them to is +2 hopefully

Dragon kin
Dragon kin are the children of half-dragons. Though they lose some of the powers of their parent they are by no means weak. A dragon kin looks much like it would as any other member of its race except for the fact they tend to be bigger and stronger than other members of their race. A Dragon kin’s skin is smooth to the touch however upon a detailed inspection a person will realize the skin is made up of very many small scales, which match the skin tone of their race. The Dragon kin generally have a hair color and attitude of their dragons color. Though their attitude can vary depending on how they were raised.

"Dragon kin" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature’s type becomes "dragon." It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size: A dragon kin is one size category larger than its base race.(They gain the penalties based on size increase to AC and Attacks, however do not gain the stat modifications or Natural AC increase. They do gain reach if their new size has reach. )

Hit Dice: Increase by one die type, to a maximum of d12.

Speed: +10 movement

AC: Natural armor improves by +4.

Damage: Dragon kin have a higher unarmed damage based on its size.
Unarmed
Size Damage
---- ------
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium-size 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6

Special Qualities: A Dragon kin has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus low-light vision and dark vision with a range of 60 feet. Dragon kin are immune to sleep and paralysis effects, and have a +2 on all will saves, as well as additional immunities based on their dragon variety.

Dragon Variety Immunity
-------------- --------
Black Acid
Blue Electricity
Green Acid
Red Fire
White Cold
Brass Fire
Bronze Electricity
Copper Acid
Gold Fire
Silver Cold

Saves: Same as the base creature

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +4.

Skills: A half-dragon has 6 skill points, plus its Intelligence modifier, per Hit Die. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills and other skills as cross-class. If the creature has a class, it gains skills for class levels normally.

Feats: Dragon kin have one feat for every four levels, or the base creature’s total of feats, whichever is greater.

 

[Wolf72]

not sure if I can help on this ...

children of 1/2 dragon ...

size/HD increase: I would consider taking one or both of these out. At least the size increase, 1/2 dragons don't get this anyway (only those from of the Dragon Disciple PrC do).

speed: why the increase in speed? 1/2 dragons don't get this either.

Natural armor down to +2

damage: why don't you just give them a slam (natural) attack (no AO for attacking unarmed) that does standard claw dmg +1.5 str bonus (for a two-handed smashing attack)

Dragon immunities: maybe a resistance instead

stats: how about a lesser +str ... maybe down to +4?

*************
it seems that you've only taken away the natural attacks and breath weapon, while giving them faster movement and greater chance for wings (with increased size).

while those two abilities (breath weapon + attks) are powerful, I don't see dragon kin as being necessarily different from 1/2-dragons.

just some observations

 

[XCorvis]

I don't have my books with me, but isn't that exactly the same as a Half-dragon except with size and speed increases and no breath weapon?

IMO, half half-dragons (your Dragon kin) should be much weaker than half-dragons. I'd ditch the size thingy - it never works out right.

I think they're still +3 ECL.

 

[drowdude]

Here is how I suggest setting it up for ECL +2.


"Dragon kin" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature’s type becomes "dragon." It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size: as base creature

Hit Dice: Increase by one die type, to a maximum of d12.

Speed: as base creature.

AC: Natural armor improves by +2.

Damage: Dragon kin have a higher unarmed damage based on its size.
Unarmed
Size Damage
---- ------
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium-size 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6

Special Qualities: A Dragon kin has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus low-light vision and dark vision with a range of 60 feet. Dragon kin are immune to sleep and paralysis effects, as well as additional immunities based on their dragon variety.

Dragon Variety Immunity
-------------- --------
Black Acid
Blue Electricity
Green Acid
Red Fire
White Cold
Brass Fire
Bronze Electricity
Copper Acid
Gold Fire
Silver Cold

Saves: Same as the base creature

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +2.


CR: +1, ECL +2

 

[Geist]

hmm drow dude thats pretty good.

ill take all this info into account and make some changes and repost.


and wolf um these guys youll notice dont have the options for wings like the half dragon does.

 

[drowdude]

Having them change size is a really bad idea if you want this to be a PC option dude. Wings or not.

That can potentially drop another +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, & +2 natural armor if templated over a medium sized creature.
I imagine that is the reason the 1/2 Dragon template doesnt include a size change.

Just have that be a roleplaying thing. The Dragon-kin tend to be larger than the base creature, but not so large that they shift a size category.

 

[Geist]

Size: A dragon kin is one size category larger than its base race.(They gain the penalties based on size increase to AC and Attacks, however do not gain the stat modifications or Natural AC increase. They do gain reach if their new size has reach. )

yes but as youll not i said they dont gain any size increase benifits to str dex or con.


if a medium creature became size large they would gain -1AC and -1 to attack and the 10' reach but that is all.

any stat mods come from the template istelf

this is also sort of not to comparable wto the half dragon template that is standard since the game im in a half dragon is much stronger than the one in the book.

 

[drowdude]

Sorry, somehow I glossed over that line about them not getting the bonuses. But that's an unnecessary rules tweak just to add 10' reach to your template at any rate.

I mean seriously, natural reach is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Never give that out lightly.

I really dont understand why you are trying to give 1/2-1/2 dragon template bonuses that the "full" 1/2 dragons template doesnt give.

If anything it should just look like a toned down version of the 1/2 dragon that is more acceptable as a a PC race option.

 

[Geist]

well im not totaly trying to tone down the current template for a half dragon really just make a differnt one.


as i said the half draongs in the game arent the half dragons in the books. half dragons in my game are well sorta like giants.


i guess adding in my descriptor of the race isnt helping keep things clear.

 

[drowdude]

Re: Re: what ECL is this? +2 or +3 or other?

this is also sort of not to comparable wto the half dragon template that is standard since the game im in a half dragon is much stronger than the one in the book.

How much more powerful are the 1/2 dragons in your game then (and why didnt you mention that earlier ) ??

:edit: We simul-posted