What *feel* did OD&D/Basic D&D/1E/2E have compared to 3E?

diaglo said:
stop by next weekend. i'm running an OD&D session for a group of n00bs.

new to OD&D. not new to D&D and roleplaying.

ask them if you can't go back... ;)

What other RPGs do you play? And, do you play only the Original Editions of those? In other words, is it prevelant throughout all RPGs that you find the "original is the best"? :)

For example, if you played Gamma World, you'd be using the 1st boxed set (or even the Metamorphosis Alpha rules!).
 

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dead said:
I played the Mentzer set. I guess I'm just generalising . . . I wouldn't know if the different editions of the Basic Set each had a markedly different feel. :) But the Mentzer set certainly filled me with a dreamy wonder . . . you must remember, I was about 10 at the time. :)

There are definitely differences in feel between the different editions of the Basic Set.

Holmes - This edition was really a case of the wrong person doing it. It's badly edited and written with many confusing rules. Despite that, as part of the first introduction to D&D, there are plenty of people who enjoyed it.

Moldvay - Where Basic D&D actually became a game that was 'easy' to understand and learn. Moldvay had a great touch for making the game exciting to read about - his introduction to the Basic book is fantastic.

This version of basic is also themed by the early modules, especially "Keep on the Borderlands" and the "Isle of Dread" - not too serious; fantastic adventures! (in the sense of 'fantasy', not found in the regular mundane world)

Keeping things logical didn't seem that important to me for this edition of Basic D&D; keeping things fun, did. This progressed into

Mentzer - Like Moldvay, except more professionally laid out, though I feel that they're not quite as useful as Moldvay.

During this edition, the "if it's fun, we'll use it" thought continued. Although there is certainly logic employed (at times), you can get a bit of the 'kitchen sink' approach as well.


Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (1st edition)

A strange blend of the fun and the serious. AD&D has for many years been one of the most frustrating games I've encountered. It overcomplicates matters (e.g. initiative, surprise, weapon factors, helmets), and certainly moves towards a more serious and logical approach.

This also shows in the modules: the adversarial DM is prominent in many, where the players must survive the challenges thrown at them. It's a tough, serious game. (This is undermined in later modules, such as Gygax's "Alice" duology and the awful material that came from the RPGA).

AD&D had a very strong feel of "this is how the world is", with the relationship between the various races very clearly defined.

Although nowhere near like the "kitchen sink" of Basic/Original D&D, there are such elements in the rules, with poorly developed additions to the system. (Monks, Bards, Psionics). Oh, and warnings about making up your own rules or extending the system past what it was designed for. AD&D isn't always consistent. (Late AD&D made the inconsistencies worse).

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (2nd edition)

"AD&D made understandable."

With the loss of Gygax's prose, you also encountered a blandness in style. Gygax's writing may have been hard to understand at times, but it was normally entertaining.

On the other hand, the game became a lot better at handling a variety of different styles, although the flaws in the system became more and more apparent.

For me, 2E (as displayed in the Forgotten Realms) made AD&D less a game about adventurers facing dangerous challenges and more about world-building and role-playing. In 1E, I really got the feeling the role-playing took a back seat (although most players would add it themselves). In 2E, the NPCs were characters to interact with...

By the time Skills and Powers rolled by, AD&D 2E had also become a game where the _players'_ choices also mattered more than in 1E. The role of their actual character became much more important. Individuality was also important. Was your fighter a peasant hero or a heroic knight?

A key omission from the core rules was the XP for treasure rule. At this point, the game's focus changed from "overcoming monsters and traps to gain loot" to a more story-focused game.

Dungeons and Dragons 3E

All of sudden, the rules changed to match 2E's desire for individuality. All of a sudden you could make meaningful decisions as to what your character was like, and because the system properly supported it, the gap between character types was no longer as wide.

This permeated all aspects of the system. Where 1E had a feeling of "this is the game world you use", 3E seems to be a lot more broad in what it can handle. (That's not to say that it can handle everything, but you're not trapped in Greyhawk or clones of that setting any more). Even the monsters could be individualised.

The drawback here was that the game could become too mechanical. The sense of "we'll make it up" of original D&D and basic D&D began to be swallowed by an ever increasing list of "balanced" feats and prestige classes.

With the triumph of Crunch over Fluff, the style in the supplemental books also began to be much less inspirational (though occasionally more useful - there have been some terribly boring and useless bits of fluff over the years).

The broadness of the system also had a related drawback: without a strong shared setting, strong flavourful elements were extremely difficult to write (and appeal to the general role-playing public).

Dungeons and Dragons 3.5E

Just in recent days - really, since the release of Eberron and Races of Stone, there has been a move back to inspirational writing in the D&D supplements. I'm not saying that it's perfect, it's not that, but it is an encouraging sign!

D&D 3.5E can still be too mechanical, and many feats are too restrictive (you can't attempt action A unless you have this feat!), but I do know that in my campaign that the options (even without the fluff) provide just as strong a campaign as under 1E or 2E, with interesting PCs, plots, adventures and suchlike.

Cheers!
 

Feel? Well yeah, it changed but that's pretty subjective.

Smell on the other hand....that's not so subjective. Has anyone else noticed that modern RPG books just don't SMELL right?

Man! Nothing says "fun afternoon" to me like the smell of acid-free paper! :)
 

Ourph said:
Feel? Well yeah, it changed but that's pretty subjective.

Smell on the other hand....that's not so subjective. Has anyone else noticed that modern RPG books just don't SMELL right?

Man! Nothing says "fun afternoon" to me like the smell of acid-free paper! :)

My 1E DMG smells like a wet horse . . . or cow dung . . . or something.

Is that normal?
 

dead said:
My 1E DMG smells like a wet horse . . . or cow dung . . . or something.

Is that normal?

No! You have obviously committed the first sin of gaming, which is to lend your books to another gamer. It's generally accepted that the first thing a borrower of your RPG books does is use them to muck out a barnyard animal's stall. You are lucky (or in some people's view unlucky) that the book was eventually returned to you. In most cases it's lost somewhere between the Endless Abyss of Lost Socks and the Bottomless Pit of Time Spent on the Internet. I recommend storing it inside a mint condition wood-grain box for several months so it can re-absorb the old school smell. ;)
 

Hmmm...


1st Edition: Like opening a present on your birthday. It was intersting, new (to me), and made the raced different from one another. (No Star Trek feel, where all is equal.) Most of my memories are nostalgic, as a 10 year old, finding a hobby was great. Lost interest right about the time UA, Wilderness Guide, and Dungeoneer's Guide came out. (Though I did love some of the crunch in the Dungeoneer's Guide.) Groups ended up being a good mix of races, with a good range of weaponry. DM had good control of game, able to really fine tune the game to his/her liking without toooo much griping.

2nd Edition: Loved it! Still wish I played/ran it. The feel for me was more Epic. When the players reached 12th or 13th level, after 2 years of playing, it created such a backlog of stories that to this day, are still talked about. Some of the Complete Handbooks turned me off, but as DM, I had full say as to what was allowed. (BTW, I love the Complete book of Elves, and my players really avoided playing elves in my campaigns because of the penalties I insisted they role-play out.) Group mainly ended up being Human, Half-elf, or Dwarf, with the occasional player willing to attempt to play an elf. A very good range of weaponry. I still yearn for the day when creating a fighter, you had to contemplate taking that 2-hd sword or polearm BECAUSE of the speed factor. DM still resumed a good amount of control, though the balance between player control and Dm control was starting to balance.

2nd Edition Players Options: I consider this a different version of the game. A distrubing one in many ways. Players REALLY started to min/max the sub abilities. 'What I rolled up a 15 str, I place 17 in muscle, and 13 in the other one... I don't need to carry alot anyways.' This reared its ugly head in my games with the Release of S&P. Weapon Groups and Similiarities, while an okay premise at the time, really didn't fly to well in this version of the game.

3rd Edition: Not really liking it. My players are enjoying the game, and enjoy the character creation phase. They do like all the options now available to them. From a DM point of view.... A Freaking nightmare. I limit my games to Core Rules only. I think with all the options out there, it is even worse the the Kits from 2E. I do like the fact that not all monsters are the same within its own type, but I have been playing that way since 1E anyway. I have found myself actually using houserules more in this version than I did in 2E. though not as much as I did with 1E. While I call 3E a nightmare, I do admit that my players are more into the game, and I find myself pleased with it. However, there is this deep gnawing feeling in my stomach when I think about 3E tooo much. Not sure why.

3.5: Not playing so no comment.

So my rankings: 2E, 1E, 3E, 2E:PO.

Played some Basic D&D, but not enough to really comment. The only game I would refuse to sit in on would be a 2E:PO game, the rest all have enough merits to be enjoyable from one side of the table or another.
 


MonsterMash said:
Merric,

Nice summary there. I guess you missed out on the OD&D experience then.

Yes: I started in 1982 with a combination of Moldvay and AD&D.

I do have a copy of the oD&D rulebooks now, and I can see that because of their drastically incomplete nature (and sometimes, unbelievably poor organisation) the games must have developed in very different ways!

You had to be creative with oD&D, because there was only the barest guideline as to what the game was. :)

Cheers!
 



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