What Happened to Devils? And my Bloodwar?

[Sorrowdusk]

And the alignment system?

Ok. 4e.

WHAT happened to the Blood War? The whole point was that it was an Evil vs Evil war of Order vs Chaos. The ONLY reason the two sides didnt (together or seperately) whoop the upper planes butts (being far more numerous on both sides) was because they comitted so much of their VAST resources to fighting each other. But in 4e....


There is no lawful evil. Are 4e Devils, the Devil you know from 3e??? I was never a big LE fan, but I respected it, and it had a place in the game as did all alignments. So now....they are JUST generic evil? No distinct lawfulness and order emphasized in how they do things, tyranny, and "The Empire"?

Now I will admit, Hell now being a "generic evil" sets it up for ALL evil souls (outside of chaotic?) to end up there, which is probably most of them. Thing is, I really liked having different planes for each.


And.... I'm just gonna say, the 4e alignment system makes no sense to me. Its an oversimplification in my mind. Rather than have two axi, its been not only reduced to one axis, but folded in such a way that it IMPLIES Law is better than Chaos, because you only see Law on the Good side and Chaos on the Evil side. The more chaotic become, the less Good you are, and the more Lawful you become, the more good you are. As if, Lawful good were a "better" good than just regular "good" (or even what passes for Chaotic good) or as IF Chaotic Evil were MORE evil than just "regular evil" (or what passes for Lawful and neutral evil).

In 3e they described the 9 alignments, and for EACH Good/Evil they said "This is the BEST kind of good you can be" because X/Y/Z and "This is the WORST evil you can be" because X/Y/Z. In otherwords, ALL alignments in "general" were equal among one another. No good variation was inherently better, nor any evil worse. And between two individuals you could pick say, a LG person and a CG person, and on the Good "region" if you will, the CG one MIGHT actually be more good than the LG one as an *individual*, even though they were both still good. Likewise with an LE character on an individual level being more evil then a CE one. Of course, the reverse could be true as well.

Saving grace here MIGHT be the fact (that if I understand correctly) that 4e's alignment system has no direct impact on mechanics? So the whole thing can be thrown out, and retrofitted?


EDIT: wait a minute......did I just read that Pallys DONT have to be LG????

 

[frankthedm]

Rather than have two axi, its been not only reduced to one axis, but folded in such a way that it IMPLIES Law is better than Chaos, because you only see Law on the Good side and Chaos on the Evil side. The more chaotic become, the less Good you are, and the more Lawful you become, the more good you are. As if, Lawful good were a "better" good than just regular "good" (or even what passes for Chaotic good) or as IF Chaotic Evil were MORE evil than just "regular evil" (or what passes for Lawful and neutral evil).

That is because the Astral Gods are in control and writing the rules. They won over the Primordials of Chaos so not only did they write the history books, but the very rule book of the Universe! Order is Good because they they SAY it is. To dare to embrace chaos in their cosmos is an act of foul transgression because the gods want it that way.

 

[Klaus]

And the alignment system?

Ok. 4e.

WHAT happened to the Blood War? The whole point was that it was an Evil vs Evil war of Order vs Chaos. The ONLY reason the two sides didnt (together or seperately) whoop the upper planes butts (being far more numerous on both sides) was because they comitted so much of their VAST resources to fighting each other. But in 4e....


There is no lawful evil. Are 4e Devils, the Devil you know from 3e??? I was never a big LE fan, but I respected it, and it had a place in the game as did all alignments. So now....they are JUST generic evil? No distinct lawfulness and order emphasized in how they do things, tyranny, and "The Empire"?

Now I will admit, Hell now being a "generic evil" sets it up for ALL evil souls (outside of chaotic?) to end up there, which is probably most of them. Thing is, I really liked having different planes for each.


And.... I'm just gonna say, the 4e alignment system makes no sense to me. Its an oversimplification in my mind. Rather than have two axi, its been not only reduced to one axis, but folded in such a way that it IMPLIES Law is better than Chaos, because you only see Law on the Good side and Chaos on the Evil side. The more chaotic become, the less Good you are, and the more Lawful you become, the more good you are. As if, Lawful good were a "better" good than just regular "good" (or even what passes for Chaotic good) or as IF Chaotic Evil were MORE evil than just "regular evil" (or what passes for Lawful and neutral evil).

In 3e they described the 9 alignments, and for EACH Good/Evil they said "This is the BEST kind of good you can be" because X/Y/Z and "This is the WORST evil you can be" because X/Y/Z. In otherwords, ALL alignments in "general" were equal among one another. No good variation was inherently better, nor any evil worse. And between two individuals you could pick say, a LG person and a CG person, and on the Good "region" if you will, the CG one MIGHT actually be more good than the LG one as an *individual*, even though they were both still good. Likewise with an LE character on an individual level being more evil then a CE one. Of course, the reverse could be true as well.

Saving grace here MIGHT be the fact (that if I understand correctly) that 4e's alignment system has no direct impact on mechanics? So the whole thing can be thrown out, and retrofitted?


EDIT: wait a minute......did I just read that Pallys DONT have to be LG????

Devils are "Evil", not because they're "simply" evil. It's that they aren't Chaotic. CE embraces wanton destruction and everything else associated with demonkind. Devils are an organized, hierarchical Evil, with Asmodeus on top, enforcing his iron rule. Most gods regard devils as enemies because they were once angels who rose up and slayed their former lord (He Who Was). and were thus imprisoned in the Nine Hells of Baator.

Demons are former elementals, corrupted by a shard of entropy placed in the Elemental Chaos by the mad god Tharizdum. They are not only the enemies of the devils and the gods, but of *everything*. The demons want to undo creation and drift cackling into oblivion.

What of the Blood War? It may be for whatever reason you want. Maybe Asmodeus seek to harness the power of the Shard of Evil, while the demons see Baator as the perfect beachhead to stage an attack on the Astral Sea.

And paladins haven't had to be LG since around 2e, when Horus allowed for CG paladins.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And the alignment system?

Ok. 4e.

WHAT happened to the Blood War?

Still raging.

The whole point was that it was an Evil vs Evil war of Order vs Chaos.

Still is. It's a war of corruptors (who aren't inimical to other life existing but just want to control it) against destroyers who just want to watch the world burn - and would both take away the corruptors toys and start with them because they are nearest.

There is no lawful evil. Are 4e Devils, the Devil you know from 3e??? I was never a big LE fan, but I respected it, and it had a place in the game as did all alignments. So now....they are JUST generic evil? No distinct lawfulness and order emphasized in how they do things, tyranny, and "The Empire"?

Alignments never made much sense except as sketches to me. 4e Devils aren't really changed - corruptors with motivations. And corruption uses law.

And.... I'm just gonna say, the 4e alignment system makes no sense to me. Its an oversimplification in my mind. Rather than have two axi, its been not only reduced to one axis, but folded in such a way that it IMPLIES Law is better than Chaos, because you only see Law on the Good side and Chaos on the Evil side.

It never made much sense to me. But "Better seven years of tyrrany than one day of anarchy".

As if, Lawful good were a "better" good than just regular "good" (or even what passes for Chaotic good)

"what passes for Chaotic good" - you have a point. Chaotic good is weird. But Lawful Good is better than regular good. Good is about giving people fish. Lawful Good is about teaching people to fish and then managing the stocks.

or as IF Chaotic Evil were MORE evil than just "regular evil" (or what passes for Lawful and neutral evil).

It is. Evil can be bargained with. It can be brought into association and will sometimes help. Chaotic evil has all the consistency and sense of honour or long term planning of a mad dog. The only thing you can do with chaotic evil is put it down.

In otherwords, ALL alignments in "general" were equal among one another. No good variation was inherently better, nor any evil worse.

And this is why I dislike the 9 point alignment system. It renders good and evil into nothing more than football teams - and brings up the killing orc babies as a good act. Some acts are better than others. Some aims are better than others. And some worse.

Saving grace here MIGHT be the fact (that if I understand correctly) that 4e's alignment system has no direct impact on mechanics? So the whole thing can be thrown out, and retrofitted?

You do. Ding dong the witch is dead.

EDIT: wait a minute......did I just read that Pallys DONT have to be LG????

And haven't had to since 2e. Which means that the exchange
"Sire. One of our Paladins might be a traitor."
"Easily sorted. Get them all down here and we'll find out who can no longer Lay on Hands"
is no longer relevant.

And there's no reason I ever saw that Kord (CG) or Erathis (N leaning G) shouldn't have their own paladins. Especially Kord.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

WHAT happened to the Blood War? The whole point was that it was an Evil vs Evil war of Order vs Chaos. The ONLY reason the two sides didnt (together or seperately) whoop the upper planes butts (being far more numerous on both sides) was because they comitted so much of their VAST resources to fighting each other. But in 4e....

Maybe people don't care much. I sure don't. I think WotC just doesn't talk about the Blood War anymore, and a DM can introduce it, or not, as they choose.

There is no lawful evil. Are 4e Devils, the Devil you know from 3e??? I was never a big LE fan, but I respected it, and it had a place in the game as did all alignments.

I disagree on that. Just look at the lawful evil description on TVTropes. If WotC had ever bothered to write such a clear description of LE in its books, maybe it would still exist as an alignment today. (I disagree with one of the three parts of LE on TVTropes, but at least it's possible to state my disagreement based on their interpretation.)

So now....they are JUST generic evil? No distinct lawfulness and order emphasized in how they do things, tyranny, and "The Empire"?

You don't need an alignment for that. You're describing personality.

Now I will admit, Hell now being a "generic evil" sets it up for ALL evil souls (outside of chaotic?) to end up there, which is probably most of them. Thing is, I really liked having different planes for each.


And.... I'm just gonna say, the 4e alignment system makes no sense to me. Its an oversimplification in my mind. Rather than have two axi, its been not only reduced to one axis, but folded in such a way that it IMPLIES Law is better than Chaos, because you only see Law on the Good side and Chaos on the Evil side. The more chaotic become, the less Good you are, and the more Lawful you become, the more good you are. As if, Lawful good were a "better" good than just regular "good" (or even what passes for Chaotic good) or as IF Chaotic Evil were MORE evil than just "regular evil" (or what passes for Lawful and neutral evil).

If WotC had clearly explained the difference between law and chaos we wouldn't be in this position. They never did, and probably can't, so they waved the white flag and folded some nearly-indistinguishable alignments together.

Saving grace here MIGHT be the fact (that if I understand correctly) that 4e's alignment system has no direct impact on mechanics? So the whole thing can be thrown out, and retrofitted?

Correct.

EDIT: wait a minute......did I just read that Pallys DONT have to be LG????

Correct. Paladin flavor is based on their order and deity, not on an ultra-restrictive view of lawful good.

If you have paladins that can't lie, perhaps that's the Order of the Justicar, tasked with hunting down and trying criminals. A player who doesn't want an unplayable obstructive code of conduct can pick a different order, probably serving a different deity. You don't need all paladins being the same.

 

[C4]

And.... I'm just gonna say, the 4e alignment system makes no sense to me.

If it helps, think of it this way: CE isn't the evilest evil, it's the most reckless evil. CE is reserved for monsters like demons who are so bent on destruction that they don't even have regard for their own lives.

Evil is the more common kind that you find among mortals; ruthless mercanaries, criminal masterminds and tyrants.

Saving grace here MIGHT be the fact (that if I understand correctly) that 4e's alignment system has no direct impact on mechanics? So the whole thing can be thrown out, and retrofitted?

Exactly; there's nothing to stop you from copy pasting your favorite alignments and cosmology into 4e. So you can take a deep calming breath now.

EDIT: wait a minute......did I just read that Pallys DONT have to be LG????

And thank Mount Celestia! That preoccupation with Galahad never sat well with me.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

And paladins haven't had to be LG since around 2e, when Horus allowed for CG paladins.

But thing is by default in 3rd, Paladins MUST be Lawful Good. Its in the SRD and the Core Book/PHB. BUT.....until you get into Variant Rules and Variant classes you dont get Freedom, Slaughter, And Tyranny Paladins.

Those are variant or alternative rules -but not core (canon? Dare I say that?) 3e rules. There's a reason why they are "variants" in 3rd and not presented as "outright" core options -otherwise they would have never restricted Pally's alignment by "default" and put the rest as "variants" to the rules.

Now I'm not saying you cant play with those variant rules, but to me, what seems like base/core/iconic fluff sets up paladin (although some above have said they dont like the Galahad 'stereotype') as LG. To me, non-LG paladin...just isnt paladin. Quietly as its kept, that Lawful Stupid or Stupid Good stick in the mud scenario/joke cropped up for a reason over the years.

In every group I have ever been in, and the people I have asked up to this point (and perhaps thats my 'luck' nothing says you HAVE to play the same way. But then again, we say barbarians 'cant be lawful' too, but nothing stops you from playing anyway you want) but I have never seen anyone allow alt alignment pallys when anybody wamted to play them. Matter of fact, the 4e Blackguard isnt LE or even "Evil" in the edition actually -he doesnt have to be evil.





I guess it's just I prefer old cosmology. See...old pact primeval (specifically going on Fiendish Codices here) was that you had Obyriths come first (cosmic horror) out of the Chaos, and then the Gods and entities of Law who opposed them. The gods created their own stuff and mortals on it and fought back the demons (both Obyrith and their Tanar'ri creations).

One thing it mentions, is that demons (yes demons) corrupted mortals (thats right, Devils would become 'masters' of the art, demons did it too in their own way. FCI even addresses demons not as tempters but as 'corruptors', as an archetype that goes about it in a different way) -they NOT ONLY kill-maim-burned...but they also encouraged mortals to embrace the 'absolute freedom' of Chaos. With true absolute freedom, they could literally do ANYTHING they wanted, without any restrictions or limitations at all.

The gods of law (there were no gods of good yet, only pure law) DID NOT like this. They saw mortals were disobeying their laws, and so they agreed they had to punish them. But how? Well OZZY & Friends had been fighting against Chaos all this time in the Abyss, and had been tainted by it. Their forms were warped by the malevolence that rubbed off on them (warping them, and making evil but still orderly on principle and hence LE).

The gods of Law were disgusted by those that returned from the war -but Ozzy had a solution. NOT ONLY would he and his men leave, but they would also establish their OWN realm and....they would punish mortals with eternal torment. (Being evil, they would be quite good at this, and the gods of Law had absolutely no problems, because at this time it wasnt about Good vs Evil, so they considered them to be on the same side. Actually...they would be interesting to see a pure Order vs Chaos D&D setting/universe, where 'classic' Good vs Evil isnt the main conflict).

However as we know....Ozzy pulled a fast one on them with a technicality, after which the Gods of Law broke up, some being definitvely Good with others neutral and some siding with the Devils as LE. Some thought the desire to enforce order so heavily, mucked up everything and went to Chaos -as Chaotic Good, the same 'freedom' chaos represented, but without hurting anyone and acting on a moral imperative to uphold others freedom.

The way I have looked at demons in 3e by comparison, was not the nihilistic Oblivionists they are in 4e, but more like the Chaos Gods/Powers in Warhammer 40K. Nurgle (Despair), Khorne (Rage), Slaanesh (Desire), Tzeentch (Hope/Ambition). They represent VAST extremes of emotion without limitation, and in the same way the Demon Lords wish to be worshipped as gods, (just as 40K Chaos Powers do) -but they are NOT Chaotic Stupid. (Khorne is definitely chaotic evil, and demands his followers fight each other if they have no foes as sacrifice, but even he knows it would be too great a loss for his very BEST Greater Daemons and Chaos Champions to fight, so he forbades it most of the time).

They do NOT want to go "cackling off into the void even as they themselves are destroyed" as an above poster described 4e demons by comparison. Just as the Chaos Powers LIVE and maintain themselves by the emotions of living mortals, so too do the Demon Lords desire godhood maintained by the worship of living mortals so...they dont want to wipe them all out. Warp beyond recognition to be sure, with prayer-gangs hand in hand literally encircling entire planets with chanting , war worlds and arenas are soaked with blood for the blood god, plague worlds with swamps of human viscera in which the afflicted marvel at undeath and stagnation and their own ailments, and worlds where entire civilizations are gripped by excess in which every individual exists to exploited and to exploit others for pleasure. Just replace planets with planes (especially, other Material planes).

Now, that may be a different setting, but thats how I feel Law vs Chaos works, and how chaos should be defined (which as some said, WoTC could not do ) The Imperium of Man went out into space in the great crusade and CONQUERED every planet humans inhabited. There was no such thing as resisting The Empire, or being alongside it. Those worlds that would not bow down to The Emperor were met with unyielding force. The Imperium is not good in fact there is very little good-hey they invented/inspired the word 'grimdark' and the Imperium is willing to sacrifce vast numbers to maintain its order (OH and if you are a non-human even if benevolent AKA a Xenos, or a human BUT a deformed crippled mutant? You're a "heretic" by virtue of your blood. And heretics need to be purged. Violently.)

At the same time you look at pure fluff/in setting books books like Liber Chaotica (with some cultist interviews/interrogations) and Black Crusade, and you can see WHY people (who are NOT insane) would turn to Chaos. Now, not all those who serve chaos are 'evil' as Black Crusade states, (albeit they are rare) but they are always self-interested individuals who 'Walk the path of glory', very often with a personal hatred of the Empire.

But dam, I have digressed.

 

[The Human Target]

Welcome to Summer 2008!

It is pretty refreshing to see people flip out about 4e again now that so much time is spent flipping out about 5e.

 

[C4]

Now I'm not saying you cant play with those variant rules, but to me, what seems like base/core/iconic fluff sets up paladin (although some above have said they dont like the Galahad 'stereotype') as LG. To me, non-LG paladin...just isnt paladin. Quietly as its kept, that Lawful Stupid or Stupid Good stick in the mud scenario/joke cropped up for a reason over the years.

For my part, it's not that I don't like LG pallies. I just don't like when every paladin is basically the same LG Galahad clone. I like a little variety, and I've never been attached to iconic images or traditions.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Welcome to Summer 2008!

It is pretty refreshing to see people flip out about 4e again now that so much time is spent flipping out about 5e.

Well this is what happens when you kinda sorta ignore it, dabble only minimally and basically dont say anything....until now. AND! You suddenly realize "wait....if there's no lawful evil then...." .

Thats basically what happened this morning.