OSR What Has Caused the OSR Revival?

[Tony Vargas]

My response is really no different than it was in 2013. Though nostalgia is a factor, it's not the underlying reason. People are nostalgic for the days of past games and past rules editions because the newer editions aren't giving them the game they want. The current games don't give them what they used to have. Whether that's because ideas of what the game IS have changed, or how it should be played have changed, or something else is really beyond my ability to pin down. When a new rules edition like 5E tries to at least in part to dress itself in 1E clothes it's clear that somebody, somewhere saw that they wanted and needed to get back something that had been lost, and thus the players that went with it.

Everything you just described is standard-issue fad-cycling. Nostalgia may not feel like the right label for those of us who have been with the hobby the whole time, but it's pretty close: the appeal of OSR is it's similarity to the game of the past...

D&D was a fad, fads flop, and when they do people always say they're dead & gone for good. Then the fad comes back, and people always say its here to stay.

But, really, it's only the popular perception that cycles, the core enthusiasts stick around through the whole cycle.

 

[Zak S]

Everything you just described is standard-issue fad-cycling. Nostalgia may not feel like the right label for those of us who have been with the hobby the whole time, but it's pretty close: the appeal of OSR is it's similarity to the game of the past...

D&D was a fad, fads flop, and when they do people always say they're dead & gone for good. Then the fad comes back, and people always say its here to stay.

But, really, it's only the popular perception that cycles, the core enthusiasts stick around through the whole cycle.

So, Tony same question as for anyone else making this claim:

1. If the OSR is driven by nostalgia than how come people who don't know anything about the old games (not just "didn't play them" but literally weren't culturally aware of them) are so into OSR games?

2. If the OSR is driven by nostalgia how come the most popular OSR products (that is: best selling, most award-winning) aren't in ay way nostlagic or written by people who have nostlalgic attachments?

3. Have you ever played any of the OSR supplements or modules? The idea that "OSR is based on nostalgia bc the games were bad" seems VERY much more prevalent among people who have played old games and extraordinarily uncommon among people who've played the new ones the OSR is producing.

If you went to Veins of the Earth or Qelong looking for familiarity and nostalgia you'd be sorely disappointed. Yet...here they are, moving units.

Can you answer these questions?

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, Tony same question as for anyone else making this claim:

1. If the OSR is driven by nostalgia

Let me stop you right there and clarify something. I did not say 'driven by nostalgia,' let alone /solely/ by nostalgia, which is the only sort of claim that your rhetorical questions might argue against.

Rather, the OSR seems to part of the comeback phase of the D&D fad-flop-comeback cycle.

Nostalgia certainly plays a part in comebacks, of course, it's a major motivator for returning fans who had left during the flop years - but, it's not that important to the Hard Core who'd stayed with the hobby the whole time, and it's not nostalgia for the past, but curiosity, aspiration, or other feelings about a past they 'missed' that helps bring New Blood into the come-back...
but, (to reflect your own rhetorical style for a moment) if nostalgia really has nothing to do with the OSR, why do the first two letters stand for Old School?'

 

[Zak S]

(to reflect your own rhetorical style for a moment) nostalgia really has nothing to do with the OSR, why do the first two letters stand for Old School?'

That's not my rhetorical style because I know from art history and the history of pretty much every cultural thing that names don't mean much and the membership of a group means much more.


Surrealism was not "above realism", really. (Ask PAul Klee)

Cubism almost never featured cubes

R&B was not just blues with rhythm and is in fact really different from blues in 100 ways, especially now, etc.

And, of course the ACTUAL Renaissance ("rebirth") was not simply a revival of greek and Roman art and ideas.

 

[Tony Vargas]

of course the ACTUAL Renaissance ("rebirth") was not simply a revival of greek and Roman art and ideas.

It was not just that, but it was that.

And, the R in OSR stands for 'Rules,' as often...

 

[Zak S]

It was not just that, but it was that.

And, the R in OSR stands for 'Rules,' as often...

I pretty much never hear any actual person say anything but "Renaissance" within OSR circles even though various official sites use other words. Googling: "Old School Rules" + "D&D" gets wayyyyyyyyyyyyy less hits than "Renaissance".

Beyond what Google does or does not prove:

I leave the readers to decide whether Zak Sabbath can be considered an expert witness on how OSR people talk.

 

[S'mon]

Goodman Games dcc stuff seems to trade heavily on nostalgia. It seems rare otherwise - I am running Stonehell and there is one nostalgia reference in the intro but that is not why I am running it; I never ran anything like a megadungeon in the 1980s and really have no nostalgia for the kind of games I ran most of that time. I do miss the kind of wilderness sandbox I ran with Fighting Fantasy ca 1985 but no one is selling that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That's not my rhetorical style ....

I was being charitable in calling it a 'style,' but I feel like 'Stawman' gets tossed around far too much around here.

I pretty much never hear any actual person say anything but "Renaissance" within OSR circles

Really? They run around saying "Old School Renaissance!" all the time instead of just 'OSR?'

I get that renaissance sounds classy, and by all means, do everything you can to claim it. But, as you tried to say, the name doesn't necessarily reflect the reality. The 'reality' (OK, a plausible characterization of reality) being that the OSR is coat-tailing the come-back of the D&D fad of the 80s...

...actually, that's not fair at all, it'd be more accurate to say that OSR was the /leading edge/ of the come-back, because WotC sadly miss-timed it's offerings in managing the D&D brand. D&D 5e, of course, being the full sound & fury of the returning fad.

 

[Zak S]

I was being charitable in calling it a 'style,' but I feel like 'Stawman' gets tossed around far too much around here.

Really? They run around saying "Old School Renaissance!" all the time instead of just 'OSR?'

I get that renaissance sounds classy, and by all means, do everything you can to claim it. But, as you tried to say, the name doesn't necessarily reflect the reality. The 'reality' (OK, a plausible characterization of reality) being that the OSR is coat-tailing the come-back of the D&D fad of the 80s...

...actually, that's not fair at all, it'd be more accurate to say that OSR was the /leading edge/ of the come-back, because WotC sadly miss-timed it's offerings in managing the D&D brand. D&D 5e, of course, being the full sound & fury of the returning fad.

I don't really understand what you think the OSR has to do with nostalgia.

If you think people like the retroclone mechanics or products solely bc nostalgia:

That is wrong and we can have a conversation about that mistake.

If you think something else: that's not really something that I'm concerned with.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you think people like the retroclone mechanics or products solely bc nostalgia

If I thought that, I would have said that, instead of going on about fads & come-backs.

As far as mechanics go, I don't think they were relevant to the original fad nor particularly so to the current come-back. Qualities of mechanics matter to the Hard Core, sure, but they're (OK, we're - there, I've admitted it) just keepers of the flame through the flop phase, once the come-backs rolling, we're swamped by Returning Fans and New Blood, and like the mechanics we may have some pretty detailed opinions about, prettymuch irrelevant, ourselves.

If you think something else: that's not really something that I'm concerned with.

If your only agenda is to shout down that one very specific idea, that OSR is /solely/ due to nostalgia, then, yeah, you're wasting your time shouting at me.

If you're actually trying to champion the opposite extreme: that OSR has /nothing/ to do with nostalgia, then, well, good luck, because that's laughable on the face of it.