What Has To Be Save-Or-Die?

[Dausuul]

For those who want save-or-die mechanics in 5E: Which effects do you feel need to be save-or-die?

For instance, I can see the case for why the medusa's gaze should be save-or-die (or, by my preference, just die, no save). On the other hand, save-or-die poison seems both unnecessary and silly to me. No real-world poison can kill you in six seconds, not even cyanide or nerve gas. Of course you could say this is some kind of magic super-poison, but what's the point?

Some other obvious choices are the high-level spells whose whole concept is "you drop over dead" (finger of death, power word kill). What else?

 

[ferratus]

I would say that I would object to save or die less if it was a singular monster that makes or break's a hero's career. If it has access to save or die, it should be a figure of legendary power. Orcus. The Medusa (not a medusa). Asmodeus' ruby rod. The poisonous fangs of Set. The spells of 18th level mage (9th level).

Heck, even if things were structured so that save or die could only happen from creatures and NPC's 5 levels higher than me I'd be largely okay with it. If someone is going to kill me by the bad luck of a single roll, it should at least be the boss of the adventure.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Things that are inherently instant death (or "death", or general uselesness):

Monsters and spells that petrify things (medusa, cockatrice, flesh to stone spell)

"Death effects" (finger of death spell, bodaks, etc.)

Paralysis (which really should suffocate you)

Disintegration (no way around this one)

Falling at terminal velocity and hitting the ground, being immersed in lava, and any number of other "real" situations


Things that are not inherently instant death:

Assassin's "death attack" (definitely other ways of handling this)

Fear effects (they really should't disable you as easily as they do in 3.X)

Monk's Quivering Palm

Poison (are there any that do? I've never seen such a thing. But you're right that even nerve gas takes time)

***

I think there's a bevy of things that just need to be instantaneous to be credible at all, but certainly there are other things that don't.

 

[Wormwood]

Epic tier threats should lay on the save or die effects.

Arch-devils, demon lords, great wyrms, demi-liches and demigods. Each should have a signature power that snuffs out life like a candle.

Because epic level heroes can handle that sort of thing. They can pop back to life, assume bodies of pure energy, resurrect their allies, etc.

Heroic and Paragon? No thanks.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Finger of Death, disintegrate, slay living, etc.
Flesh to stone (though, you're not QUITE dead here).
The more deadly poisons - no poisons in real life kill in six seconds, but then, we're not dealing with 9 feet tall spiders, either.
The occasional badass monster, I.E, Medusa, basilisk, bodak, etc.

We're not asking for half the monster manual here. A half a dozen spells, and 4 or 5 monsters. That's it.

Edit: yeah Assassin's death attack and the monk's quivering palm should be SoD too. Maybe a few others that aren't springing to mind at the moment.

 

[ferratus]

I guess I would also ask whether there would be any objection to moving the spells that cause save or die to 9th level.

Finger of Death - 9th level Necromancy
Flesh to Stone - 9th level Transmutation
Disintegrate - 9th level Evocation

and so forth. Spells that take away actions (the save or suck spells) should also be much higher than they are. Taking away actions is pretty much the most devestatingly effective thing a spellcaster can do.

 

[Ahnehnois]

...Spells that take away actions (the save or suck spells) should also be much higher than they are. Taking away actions is pretty much the most devestatingly effective thing a spellcaster can do.

I don't know about just making everything 9th level, but I think that many classic spells (Sleep, Hold, Wrack, etc.) are somewhat underleveled. Balance isn't everything, but it is something.

 

[ferratus]

I don't know about just making everything 9th level, but I think that many classic spells (Sleep, Hold, Wrack, etc.) are somewhat underleveled. Balance isn't everything, but it is something.

I meant just the instant death spells being 9th level. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think this is the wrong question.

I think the more relevant question is "how lethal do you want your game to be?"

This is going to vary by group. Some groups are fine with snuffing out life forces left and right with or without resurrection. Other groups treat PC life, at least, as more precious than that. Or find that when Bill's paladin dies, Bill wanders away from the table to play Xbox while everyone else plays the game.

What has to be save-or-die? Nothing, if you don't want it to be.

What could be save-or-die? Everything. Every sword-swing and every door in a dungeon, if you want it to be.

Who can tell you what's best for you? Only your own group.

Infinite Ways To Play (tm)

 

[WheresMyD20]

I think it all depends on how saving throws are implemented. In the older editions, the chance of succeeding at a saving throw only depends on the class and level of the target. High level characters tend to make saving throws pretty consistently. To balance that, high level spells tend to have more dire effects than low level spells when a saving throw is missed.

From 3e onwards, saving throws (or the equivalent attack vs. defense in 4e) depend on both the power of the attack as well as the resilience of the target. One effect of this is that at high levels saving throws are missed more often. To balance things out, the high level spells need to have less dire effects than they had previously. This nuance was missed in the design of 3e, but was rectified in 4e.

So, it all depends on if they use 0e-2e saving mechanics or a 3e-4e mechanics as a base for 5e. With 0e-2e saving mechanics, save or die is quite viable at high levels. With 3e-4e saving mechanics, save or die needs to be used much more sparingly.