What I don't get RE: FR and High Level NPC's

[Brian Compton]

I think the problem some of us have with the high level NPCs in the realms is not trying to run a game with or without them, of course the DM has complete control. If we are to run the game as presented in the source book justifying their actions become hard. These NPCs are everywhere, in every region and city.

If there was clear reasons as to why they do not always get involved, the Gods have restrictions from Ao, why cant Eliminster have some, he is nearly a Demigod.

When an NPC gets to be 15th level she should have a serious amount of baggage (oh villians, responibilities, ...), this is not always outlined in the book.

But the thing about these NPCs is that a lot of them are pretty cool and it would be nice to include them as is, without having to fear that I am going to have to come up with some reason why they cannot do this job themselves or haven them visit another plane every week. The oul' note on Eliminsters door "gon' fishin'".

For some, it's easy. Elminster and any other Chosen, as I said before, are godslaves. First and foremost, they must do what their deity tells them to do. There are things around Faerun which are threats to people that the Chosen of Mystra aren't allowed to stop, because these threats in their way help to develop new magic or promote magical research. The Simbul does not wipe out Thay, despite the danger it's government poses, because the struggle between Thay and Aglarond promotes the creation of new and different magics on both sides, and this is what Mystra wants. That doesn't constrain the PC's, though. They may do whatever they want.

Likewise, there seems to be high sense of "mutual assured destruction." If Elminster starts taking out Zhents, then Fzoul or Manshoon gets involved, which may set off whole chains of alliances and deals being triggered. This could be great for your campaign as it would allow you to use all these NPC's, or would give you a reason why they aren't involved.

Finally, if the DM makes up a threat (a new power group, schemes between nobles of different countries, a dragon taking up residence in a wilderness area) the big NPC's may simply not be aware of it. This could be something the PC's discover on their own, or may even instigate as a result of their actions. You could then have them try to enlist the aid of a powerful NPC, or have them go it alone. There is plenty of room to have this happen, and it blocks out NPC's.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. If you follow the logic about why the NPCs don't get involved, it almost always ends up making the PCs look like second class or non-heroic people.

Bhaal's followers are trying to take over the world? Sorry that's too hard for you, but luckily Elminster has it covered while you fight these orcs. If you screw up though, I'm sure someone will take care of them eventually when they become a REAL threat. Until then, you can handle it.

Gained level 15? Impressive, except that you are nowhere near ready to take on the REAL threats to the Realms. But trust me, they are happening on such a regular basis that they occupy at least 5 different epic wizards fixing them constantly. So, they are out there, but no one needs you to stop them. Unless the 6th Epic level threat strikes the Realms in the same day...in which case, everyone on the planet is doomed.

I don't really like the idea that there are beings on the scale of the Simul and Elminster trying to hatch evil plots on such a regular basis that they are all needed constantly.

Yes indeed, who will save the Realms when there is one too many epic-level threats to deal with? It's a good thing that there are exactly as many evil threats as there are high-level NPCs. If there were too many, everyone would be doomed. If there were too few, the NPCs might find other things to do with themselves, and start stopping evil cults from sacrificing babies, protecting villagers from troll raids, or other lower-level tasks.

Okay, there used to be an ancient civilization called Netheril, which was the big civilization back in the early Realms, right? We can probably assume that they had enough high-level characters to put down all the daily world-shattering threats that the Realms needs to assume in order to keep the high-level NPCs busy enough that they're not interfering with the adventures of lowly 15th-level PCs.

So when Netheril fell suddenly, and those high-level PCs weren't around any longer, who saved the planet on a daily basis until the population of DMPCs had recovered?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

It is fairly simple. People of that high level have other concerns and interests.

Archwizard 'A' is a recluse, focusing on his experiments, and doesn't care about issues unless they are a direct threat to him or his research. Archwizard 'A' isn't going to get involved.

High Level Fighter 'B' has retired from adventuring. He has had hard go of it and lost friends during a long adventuring career. All he wants is the relative peace of running a business he bought now. Fighter 'B' isn't interested in coming out of retirement to deal with some threat. His attitude is - let others step up now like he did years ago.

High Level Rogue 'C' is hiding out. He was forced into 'retirement' after making off with the Syl-Pasha's crown jewels and has been ducking assassins and bounty hunters since. Dealing with a problem means exposing himself to discovery by his pursuers.

I can go on and on.

Bottom line - high level people have better things to do than drop whatever they are doing to deal with some problem that others can deal with.

Villagers: Hey, old paladin guy who once killed a titan, there are a bunch of ogres coming into our village and eating people.
Paladin: So?
Villagers: Shouldn't you, you know, kill them?
Paladin: I'm retired.
Villagers: Aren't you supposed to be a hero? Didn't you spend most of your life rescuing people from exactly this sort of thing?
Paladin: Are they fiendish ogres with 20 levels of Barbarian?
Villagers: No, they look like regular ogres.
Paladin: Go find some low-level guys to do it. I may be Lawful Good, but I'm not going to lift a damn finger unless I can expect level-appropriate rewards.

Somehow, I doubt that rampant apathy is a believable explanation for the way that high-level NPCs aren't protecting innocent people from the depredations of a world full of monsters.

Hell, I can see this as a bonafide FR plot hook. Villagers save up to send a guy to Waterdeep to post an "adventurers wanted" poster. They sign up with him, and on the way back he starts talking about "Sir Bentley," a local man who used to be a swordsman. He starts out telling them how Sir Bentley once saved them from a goblin tribe, and the PCs think, "aha, he's just a low-level NPC." However, the stories over the few days travel start getting more and more interesting. Sir Bentley fought trolls, giants, a couple dragons, and eventually killed a titan...essentially the condensed story of a character going from 1st to 20th level. At some point the PCs might ask if he's dead or moved away, and if not, why he isn't stopping the ogres. The villager, shrugging, just says "He said something about Seears and Eckspee, and told us to find some 'low level mooks' to do it."

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yes indeed, who will save the Realms when there is one too many epic-level threats to deal with? It's a good thing that there are exactly as many evil threats as there are high-level NPCs. If there were too many, everyone would be doomed. If there were too few, the NPCs might find other things to do with themselves, and start stopping evil cults from sacrificing babies, protecting villagers from troll raids, or other lower-level tasks.

Fallacy of the excluded middle here, though.

Okay, there used to be an ancient civilization called Netheril, which was the big civilization back in the early Realms, right? We can probably assume that they had enough high-level characters to put down all the daily world-shattering threats that the Realms needs to assume in order to keep the high-level NPCs busy enough that they're not interfering with the adventures of lowly 15th-level PCs.

Netheril didn't have all that many good NPCs.

 

[Barastrondo]

So we have an ever-increasing number of completely irresponsible ex-heroes. I find this explanation more than a bit lacking.

It really works for Greyhawk, but that's largely because folks like Mordenkainen and Robilar were mercenary bastards during their adventuring days and are essentially mercenary bastards (or maybe interested in some Balance-thingy) since settling down. They also tend to come across as more fallible; admittedly, I haven't read too much FR stuff since my college days, but I do remember a lot of Dragon articles where Ed made a point of stressing that Elminster is wiser and stronger than all these young punk adventurers (who were frequently cited as a cause of much unwanted strife and foolishness). Perhaps the intention was to encourage players to "play nicer" in the setting instead of going wholly psychopath, but I bet it didn't help that whole public perception about the NPCs being more favored than your own PCs.

Interestingly, I wound up receiving a copy of Greenwood's Geanavue (sp?) book for the Kalamar setting some time ago, and noted that it had a very strong setting prejudice against adventurers. It made sense for the setting — but it didn't seem really encouraging to be a PC adventurer in that setting.

Presentation's a tricky thing. You don't want to eliminate the drama of struggle and adversity, but stress them too much and a number of players will go elsewhere.

 

[Cadfan]

The idea that "better things to do" or "apathy" or "fighting other enemies" works when the party is being contracted to do escort duty for a caravan, or clean up the sewers. It doesn't work so well when an army of invading orcs is threatening to burn down the city where the epic level characters live.

I like how some many people advise handling high level NPCs by not using them. There... isn't much of a step between "you shouldn't use these high level NPCs, you're crazy if you do, its bad DMing if you let them wreck your game," and "Hey, I have an idea, lets just not have them in the setting at all!"

 

[Eldragon]

So when Netheril fell suddenly, and those high-level PCs weren't around any longer, who saved the planet on a daily basis until the population of DMPCs had recovered?

Pun-Pun.

He comes down from his lofty seat atop mount olympus and smites evil whenever there are too few good-aligned PCs to save the day. Conversely, following his true neutral alignment, he also creates trouble when the dark forces of Faerun are not pulling their weight. It is Pun-Pun who is responsible for the Seraphim in the first place.

 

[Brian Compton]

Somehow, I doubt that rampant apathy is a believable explanation for the way that high-level NPCs aren't protecting innocent people from the depredations of a world full of monsters.

Again, you assume that every village has a 20th level former character. If the DM doesn't want it that way, then it is not. Or, who's to say he went up against the threat and died or disappeared? Then where are your poor villagers.

If it's the little ubiquitous NPC's that supposedly fill every village that are your problem, ignore them.

 

[Brian Compton]

The idea that "better things to do" or "apathy" or "fighting other enemies" works when the party is being contracted to do escort duty for a caravan, or clean up the sewers. It doesn't work so well when an army of invading orcs is threatening to burn down the city where the epic level characters live.

If the threat is that big, neither one NPC nor a whole party can pull that off solo. This would be a team effort and would allow the DM to show the NPC's while still letting the PC's shine. And makes for a great story- "We stood back-to-back with Drizz't and Bruenor and fought off an army of orcs coming down out of the Spine of the World." I don't know why people assume that Drizz't et al. can bring down entire armies by themselves. A dragon, sure, but an army- not likely.

 

[Cadfan]

Not an army, of course. Could probably waltz in undetected and kill off all the generals though.