What I don't get RE: FR and High Level NPC's

[Bluenose]

So by this argument, no campaign should ever have high level NPC's, since they make the PC's irrelevant. Therefore we should remove Mordenkainen and the other high mages from Greyhawk, all Heroes of the Lance and their descendants from Dragonlance, any film character from Star Wars, etc., etc. Likewise, all homebrew worlds should not create such characters, since the DM should be using them to solve all the world's problems.

Yes, it would be silly to do so. And yet, people play in these settings all the time, have fun, and don't feel like their characters are doing nothing of importance. Which is why I don't get the argument that heroic PC's can't exist in FR. They do- ask any one who has played a long-term game in the setting.

I think you're missing the point. It's not the existence of high-level NPCs that's the problem. It's quite specifically the number and power of Faerun's contingent. Over 100 wizards capable of casting Wish, "Chosen" who are immortal with special powers not available to PCs, clerics casting epic spells, etc. While a lot of people talk about the NPCs at the top end of the power scale, there are as many or more running around a few levels lower who are more powerful or as powerful as any PC group.

 

[Cadfan]

Fallacy of the excluded middle.

There is an optimum density of high level NPCs. Many people feel that FR has got this number wrong and has erred on the high side.

That doesn't mean there should be no high level NPCs. Just less maybe.

I propose the following rules.

Let "tension" refer to the general difficulty of explaining and justifying why high level "region/world protecting" NPCs can't solve problems on their own.
Then,

1: As the danger the party faces grows in importance to the general public, tension increases.
2: As the level of the high level protectorate NPCs grows, tension increases.
3: As the number of high level protectorate NPCs grows, tension increases.
4: As the level of the PCs approaches the level of the high level protectorate NPCs, tension increases.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Give me reasons why eliminster is busy, why are the Simbuls hands tied...

Considering that Elminster and the Simbul are in a relationship... isn't that self-explanatory?

Cheers, LT.

 

[BlackMoria]

That CAN be done. Technically. Except if you do that, the Forgotten Realms fans in your group will explain to you that you're doing it wrong.

No. It IS done.

Maybe that is a problem in your experience but it not a problem in any of the several dozen FR campaigns that I have run for 50+ different players.

Not once as anyone said anything about my departure from canon storyline, the NPCs or whatever that I was doing that was wrong from their point of view. All of these players are FR fans and most have read the novels. No one has asked why Uber NPC so and so isn't doing this or that.

Perhaps my FR players that I have had over the years are less rabid that those players you have experienced.

Noone can complain about my portrayal of Elminister when Elminster never show up in my campaigns.

High level NPCs are not a problem. How individual DMs deal with the issue of high level NPCs can be.

 

[Brian Compton]

That CAN be done. Technically. Except if you do that, the Forgotten Realms fans in your group will explain to you that you're doing it wrong.

If they're rude, yes. That's a whole different issue. If you set out from the beginning what the parameters of your game are and say that you may not be running "by the book(s)," then you've set your expectations and the players should abide by it. If they don't, then this isn't the game for them.

Don't let fanboy horror stories ruin the experience of playing in the setting. They are rare, but better known than the success stories (as usual).

 

[Brian Compton]

I think you're missing the point. It's not the existence of high-level NPCs that's the problem. It's quite specifically the number and power of Faerun's contingent. Over 100 wizards capable of casting Wish, "Chosen" who are immortal with special powers not available to PCs, clerics casting epic spells, etc. While a lot of people talk about the NPCs at the top end of the power scale, there are as many or more running around a few levels lower who are more powerful or as powerful as any PC group.

1) But, in part, it is the existence of high level NPC's. Look at the ruling cabal of Greyhawk. They have a lot of magical power, allies of any number of magnitudes, and other mundane resources. Why, then, do they not fix every problem in Greyhawk? Likewise, this is a central gathering place in the world; you mean to tell me that it doesn't have a lot of middle to high level NPC's running around that could just as easily solve any problems the high mages don't? So how then could a DM ever run a game in or around the City of Greyhawk and get the players excited about it? And yet many do, just as they do in FR.

I'm not so much disagreeing that FR has a lot of mid to high level NPC's "by the book". I disagree with the fact that people point it out as a problem endemic to FR and not any other setting with established high level NPC's. Maybe it's only because the NPC numbers for FR locales are more public or statted out than any other published setting, but other published settings don't see this problem.

2) The easiest way to get rid of these hundreds of middling and higher NPC's? Don't. Use. Them. In your version of FR, they don't have to exist. I've never been in an FR game where the DM took the time to flesh out even half the classed NPC's that make up a given place's population. The numbers given are guidelines (determined in part, I think, by guidelines from the DMG, a core resource), but the DM doesn't have to go by them. It's his or her game, and any player who wants to whine about it not being done right obviously has higher priorities in his or her gaming agenda than positive social interaction. But, again, that's a whole other issue and likely manifests outside of this context.

3) "Chosen" are godslaves. PC's have free reign to go wherever and do whatever without constraint. All the shiny powers in the world don't make up for that key fact IMHO.

 

[vagabundo]

1) But, in part, it is the existence of high level NPC's. Look at the ruling cabal of Greyhawk. They have a lot of magical power, allies of any number of magnitudes, and other mundane resources. Why, then, do they not fix every problem in Greyhawk? Likewise, this is a central gathering place in the world; you mean to tell me that it doesn't have a lot of middle to high level NPC's running around that could just as easily solve any problems the high mages don't? So how then could a DM ever run a game in or around the City of Greyhawk and get the players excited about it? And yet many do, just as they do in FR.

I'm not so much disagreeing that FR has a lot of mid to high level NPC's "by the book". I disagree with the fact that people point it out as a problem endemic to FR and not any other setting with established high level NPC's.

2) The easiest way to get rid of these hundreds of middling and higher NPC's? Don't. Use. Them. In your version of FR, they don't have to exist. I've never been in an FR game where the DM took the time to flesh out even half the classed NPC's that make up a given place's population. The numbers given are guidelines (determined in part, I think, by guidelines from the DMG, a core resource), but the DM doesn't have to go by them. It's his or her game, and any player who wants to whine about it not being done right obviously has higher priorities in his or her gaming agenda than positive social interaction. But, again, that's a whole other issue and likely manifests outside of this context.

I think the problem some of us have with the high level NPCs in the realms is not trying to run a game with or without them, of course the DM has complete control. If we are to run the game as presented in the source book justifying their actions become hard. These NPCs are everywhere, in every region and city.

If there was clear reasons as to why they do not always get involved, the Gods have restrictions from Ao, why cant Eliminster have some, he is nearly a Demigod.

When an NPC gets to be 15th level she should have a serious amount of baggage (oh villians, responibilities, ...), this is not always outlined in the book.

But the thing about these NPCs is that a lot of them are pretty cool and it would be nice to include them as is, without having to fear that I am going to have to come up with some reason why they cannot do this job themselves or haven them visit another plane every week. The oul' note on Eliminsters door "gon' fishin'".

EDIT: To be summerise what I am trying to say above, I think the FR team need to think more about the NPCs in the Sourcebook and flesh out their lives a little so us struggling unimaginitive DMs who want to use them in the game have some hooks to build on. There are clever people over in WOTC, think of something for me guys!!

 

[BlackMoria]

But the thing about these NPCs is that a lot of them are pretty cool and it would be nice to include them as is, without having to fear that I am going to have to come up with some reason why they cannot do this job themselves or haven them visit another plane every week. The oul' note on Eliminsters door "gon' fishin'".

It is fairly simple. People of that high level have other concerns and interests.

Archwizard 'A' is a recluse, focusing on his experiments, and doesn't care about issues unless they are a direct threat to him or his research. Archwizard 'A' isn't going to get involved.

High Level Fighter 'B' has retired from adventuring. He has had hard go of it and lost friends during a long adventuring career. All he wants is the relative peace of running a business he bought now. Fighter 'B' isn't interested in coming out of retirement to deal with some threat. His attitude is - let others step up now like he did years ago.

High Level Rogue 'C' is hiding out. He was forced into 'retirement' after making off with the Syl-Pasha's crown jewels and has been ducking assassins and bounty hunters since. Dealing with a problem means exposing himself to discovery by his pursuers.

I can go on and on.

Bottom line - high level people have better things to do than drop whatever they are doing to deal with some problem that others can deal with.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I agree to a point, but I recently read through the old gray box FR from 1987 for the first time. I actually counted out which alignments had the most high level representatives.

It still was Elminster and the side of Good by much more than a nose.

Actually, the details of NPCs in the gray box aren't really going to tell you "which alignments [have] the most high level representatives." That's a respective sampling, most of whom are intended to be people the characters can meet and interact with, not prospective foes. Note, for example, that none of the Zulkirs of Thay is listed in the boxed set; nor is more than one beholder (Manxam), no dragons, no senior members of the Zhentarim other than Fzoul, Sememmon, and Manshoon, and no senior members of the Cult of the Dragon. Et cetera.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Bottom line - high level people have better things to do than drop whatever they are doing to deal with some problem that others can deal with.

So we have an ever-increasing number of completely irresponsible ex-heroes. I find this explanation more than a bit lacking.