What I don't get RE: FR and High Level NPC's

[Traycor]

40 or 50 of them
Gross over-exaggeration..

I disagree. If you look through the sections in FR, almost every major city has NPCs over lvl 15, and most wilderness areas, mountains, etc...

It's really hard to have anything meaningful in a lvl 2 game when the local druid and his minions are all lvl 18. Why wouldn't they just fix everything for you? Forget Elminster. The mundane NPC's with names and no stats are far too powerful.

 

[Brian Compton]

I disagree. If you look through the sections in FR, almost every major city has NPCs over lvl 15, and most wilderness areas, mountains, etc...

It's really hard to have anything meaningful in a lvl 2 game when the local druid and his minions are all lvl 18. Why wouldn't they just fix everything for you? Forget Elminster. The mundane NPC's with names and no stats are far too powerful.

"As DM, I'm ignoring/rewriting the NPC info for Marsember."

Not so hard to have a level 2 game now is it?

"The high-level NPC's are still in the game. They're just busy right now. You want to know what they're doing? If you find out, things have gone really badly for them."

Can't always use it, but it can make your players stop their grinnin' and drop their linen once in a while. Think "The Zeppo" from Buffy- a great example of how major NPC's get occupied while other things are going on around them.

Point is: it's the DM's game. If you're the DM, it's your table, you run it how you please. Player input is fine, but when the dice hit the wood it's ultimately your show. Doesn't matter if its FR or a homebrew world, the world is yours to do as you please, not for the players to dictate how you run a game because they've studied every little note and detail to death.

 

[Bluenose]

I think I've identified the four main reasons people give for why the high-level NPCs aren't a problem. There's:

1. They don't deal with minor problems.
2. They prefer to act through proxies.
3. They only intervene when it's absolutely necessary.
4. They're too busy with other things.

Which of the following viewpoints would people think is the best way to advertise the Realms to potential new players?


1. Your PCs can be heroes at low levels, saving children from goblins, getting cats out of trees, and being big fish in small ponds. You won't ever have to worry about high-level matters because the settings major NPCs have that covered.


2. Your PCs can get involved in all sorts of adventures, provided they are willing to be used as tools by high-level NPCs who are involved in proxy fights with other high-level NPCs. You won't ever have to worry about what you do as a high-level character, because then you'll be a manipulator behind the scenes yourself.


3. You can be involved in any sort of adventure your DM can come up with, foiling all sorts of dangerous evil plots at any level. You don't have to worry about screwing up, because if you do something wrong and the plot looks like succeeding one of the settings really powerful NPCs will zoom in as a deus-ex-machina and set everything right.

4. You can be involved in any sort of adventure your DM can come up with, foiling all sorts of dangerous evil plots at any level. There are so many going on that you none of the settings high-level NPCs or powerful adventuring parties has got time to deal with a problem that you will be solving. And since they are enormous Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu characters, none of the evil plots that they are off solving ever work out, so you don't have to worry that while you are off dealing with the Ravenous Bug-Blatter Beast of Thraal your home will be destroyed because less competent adventurers let something happen to it.

5. FR: where your PCs aren't meant to be heroes.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Which of the following viewpoints would people think is the best way to advertise the Realms to potential new players?

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. If you follow the logic about why the NPCs don't get involved, it almost always ends up making the PCs look like second class or non-heroic people.

Bhaal's followers are trying to take over the world? Sorry that's too hard for you, but luckily Elminster has it covered while you fight these orcs. If you screw up though, I'm sure someone will take care of them eventually when they become a REAL threat. Until then, you can handle it.

Gained level 15? Impressive, except that you are nowhere near ready to take on the REAL threats to the Realms. But trust me, they are happening on such a regular basis that they occupy at least 5 different epic wizards fixing them constantly. So, they are out there, but no one needs you to stop them. Unless the 6th Epic level threat strikes the Realms in the same day...in which case, everyone on the planet is doomed.

I don't really like the idea that there are beings on the scale of the Simul and Elminster trying to hatch evil plots on such a regular basis that they are all needed constantly.

I prefer to think each danger that happens is fairly far and few between and that the PCs are ALWAYS needed to stop it. I dislike throwing out hints in any of my games about OTHER adventurers who are stopping evils. I prefer the illusion that adventurers are just as rare as the problems and the PCs always end up being in the right place to stop the bad guys.

And I think that's what we're getting for 4th Ed.

 

[Brewhammer]

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. If you follow the logic about why the NPCs don't get involved, it almost always ends up making the PCs look like second class or non-heroic people.

Again, that'd be poor DM'ing. That's not the fault of NPC's who are entirely controlled by the DM. As has been pointed out in this thread, many times, the high level NPC's don't even have to get brought up or introduced in the game. In fact, their stats can even be modified by any DM to make them weaker.

If anyone's PC's are feeling 'second class' or not heroic in a game world as large as Faerun then that's the DM's fault. 100%.

 

[Brian Compton]

So by this argument, no campaign should ever have high level NPC's, since they make the PC's irrelevant. Therefore we should remove Mordenkainen and the other high mages from Greyhawk, all Heroes of the Lance and their descendants from Dragonlance, any film character from Star Wars, etc., etc. Likewise, all homebrew worlds should not create such characters, since the DM should be using them to solve all the world's problems.

Yes, it would be silly to do so. And yet, people play in these settings all the time, have fun, and don't feel like their characters are doing nothing of importance. Which is why I don't get the argument that heroic PC's can't exist in FR. They do- ask any one who has played a long-term game in the setting.

 

[Cadfan]

Again, that'd be poor DM'ing. That's not the fault of NPC's who are entirely controlled by the DM. As has been pointed out in this thread, many times, the high level NPC's don't even have to get brought up or introduced in the game. In fact, their stats can even be modified by any DM to make them weaker..

That CAN be done. Technically. Except if you do that, the Forgotten Realms fans in your group will explain to you that you're doing it wrong.

 

[Eldragon]

<----- *points at postcount*

Methinks I've got you on that one.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My seat as king of the Lurkers has been overthrown! Now to go crawl back under a rock for another 5 years...

 

[Jedi_Solo]

As has been pointed out in this thread, many times, the high level NPC's don't even have to get brought up or introduced in the game.

Expect that it isn't always the DM who brings them up. The players can bring them up too. If Elminster and co. don't exist/won't help/etc then it "isn't Forgotten Realms" (or so the players say in most of the stories I heard on the topic).

 

[Simon Marks]

So by this argument, no campaign should ever have high level NPC's, since they make the PC's irrelevant.

Fallacy of the excluded middle.

There is an optimum density of high level NPCs. Many people feel that FR has got this number wrong and has erred on the high side.

That doesn't mean there should be no high level NPCs. Just less maybe.