Angel Tarragon
Dawn Dragon
If DnD had died with second edition, I doubt we'd all be chatting at EnWorld. 
What if. . .WotC never bought TSR?
- Thread starter wingsandsword
- Start date
WayneLigon
Adventurer
No-one would have the cash to pick up the D&D rights as I don't see the TSR 'estate' breaking them up peice-meal. I wouldn't think anyone else but WoTC at the time had anywhere near the amount of money to do so.
The internet would have kept a lot of the game alive, and we'd now be seeing a few 'unofficial D&D 3E' PDFs, all different. There'd probably be no means or incentive to pursue legal action against them, since no-one would be at the helm of the IP, so the best wuold in effect become 'D&D'. It would basically be a return to 1978, with dozens of little 'unofficial game aid for D&D' one-man-shops.
But most gamers don't even know PDFs exist. The people dependent on the book trade never see what happens with D&D: just some old books slowly fading under the florescent lights. Most games shops simply close or diversify even more. Card Games come, then fade.
What does happen is that some other company creates a knockoff that replaces D&D. The concepts of classes and levels and such aren't part of the IP - many other games around and just before that time had them but they failed to 'become D&D' because there already was a D&D. Without that restriction, those games return or others similar to them are born and fight it out for first place.
Another game similar to D&D arises, missing only the IP-specific monsters and settings. It takes them a little while because they don't have the brand name recognition but they eventually find that this works in their favor as word-of-internet spreads. The people that played D&D want a replacement fantasy system, so they flock to it. The people that despised D&D for being D&D flock to it because it's not D&D. Eventually another book trade deal goes through.
A few grognards stick to the old systems and get pretty much ignored, like the people that still play Bunnies and Burrows or John Carter of Mars.
The internet would have kept a lot of the game alive, and we'd now be seeing a few 'unofficial D&D 3E' PDFs, all different. There'd probably be no means or incentive to pursue legal action against them, since no-one would be at the helm of the IP, so the best wuold in effect become 'D&D'. It would basically be a return to 1978, with dozens of little 'unofficial game aid for D&D' one-man-shops.
But most gamers don't even know PDFs exist. The people dependent on the book trade never see what happens with D&D: just some old books slowly fading under the florescent lights. Most games shops simply close or diversify even more. Card Games come, then fade.
What does happen is that some other company creates a knockoff that replaces D&D. The concepts of classes and levels and such aren't part of the IP - many other games around and just before that time had them but they failed to 'become D&D' because there already was a D&D. Without that restriction, those games return or others similar to them are born and fight it out for first place.
Another game similar to D&D arises, missing only the IP-specific monsters and settings. It takes them a little while because they don't have the brand name recognition but they eventually find that this works in their favor as word-of-internet spreads. The people that played D&D want a replacement fantasy system, so they flock to it. The people that despised D&D for being D&D flock to it because it's not D&D. Eventually another book trade deal goes through.
A few grognards stick to the old systems and get pretty much ignored, like the people that still play Bunnies and Burrows or John Carter of Mars.
John Desmarais
Explorer
If WotC had not bought TSR...
My guess is that TSR would have continued it's downward spiral for a ew more years and that someone someone else would have bought them - or rather, someone else would have bought as many of the properties (jncluding D&D/AD&D) as they could have, just a couple of years later. My guess is actually Interplay. This would have been right around the time that the Baldur's Gate games were hitting their popularity peak. They would have had a strong intrest in keeping the D&D brand alive.
John D
My guess is that TSR would have continued it's downward spiral for a ew more years and that someone someone else would have bought them - or rather, someone else would have bought as many of the properties (jncluding D&D/AD&D) as they could have, just a couple of years later. My guess is actually Interplay. This would have been right around the time that the Baldur's Gate games were hitting their popularity peak. They would have had a strong intrest in keeping the D&D brand alive.
John D
William Ronald
Explorer
John Desmarais said:
I think that thisis possible, although TSR was pretty much at the end of its life when WoTC came in -- Dragon Magazine had ceased publishing. I think someone would have bought the Dungeons and Dragons name. Interplay would be a likely candidate or Hasbro might have gone straigh to TSR.
However, I think it was best that WoTC bought TSR. We now have the OGL, which has lead to many great new products. I am uncertain if we would have had an OGL without WoTC.
Also, I think Frukatha is right: we would not be discussing this at EN World.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
francisca said:
You first - note that WotC never released any numbers that conclusively proved that RPGs are more popular now than they were in the late 1990s. Sure, they said as much - but saying as much and proving it aren't the same thing. Why should naysayers provide hard-coded numbers if the argument that they're refuting was never suppoprted by same said numbers to begin with?
To answer the OP, though... somebody would have purchased the right to D&D. Probably Steve Jackson Games, White Wolf, or Cyber Games (which was doing a lot of that at the time). Failing that, some omnimedia corp like Time probably would have picked them up, if only to sell a lot of cheap, mass-produced, tie-in products. Worst case scenario is that Cybergames would have grabbed them, effectively killing all interest in the property (hey, they managed to do it with Deadlands and Hero for several years).
And for all of those who are sooooooo happy that a big corp like Hasbro didn't end up with D&D... remember, WotC is a subsidary of Hasbro
William Ronald
Explorer
WoTC was not initially part of a major corporation like Hasbro. Its independent status allowed for such things as the OGL, which I think that we might be unlikely to see coming out of a major corporation.
I agree that someone would have purchased the rights to D&D as there was too much money from the game and related products to let it languish. Ironically, the financial problems of TSR would have lead to a willingness to sell the company -- either as a whole or in several pieces. (I do not think that TSR could have survived on its own and the only realistic options for the owners back then was a sale of the company or its brands to other companies.)
I agree that someone would have purchased the rights to D&D as there was too much money from the game and related products to let it languish. Ironically, the financial problems of TSR would have lead to a willingness to sell the company -- either as a whole or in several pieces. (I do not think that TSR could have survived on its own and the only realistic options for the owners back then was a sale of the company or its brands to other companies.)
BSF
Explorer
King of Old School said:
That's odd. I haven't had anywhere near as large a group of gaming friends since the 80's. Back then was the last time I had two regular, disparate, large weekly games.
If we must set aside "Dancyist propganda" then I have to settle for personal anecdotal experience. In my experience there are more gamers now then there were 10 years ago.
Okay, if Wizards had never bought TSR:
King of Old School said:
Out of my groups of friends, I know one person that bought any White Wolf books. Out of the same groups, I was the only one that owned anything by Palladium. Though I concede that WW had a lot of popularity, so it might have been the bigger player in the market if WotC had not bought TSR.
What would have happened?
I would still be playing HERO, WEG Star Wars and quite likely dipping into Rolemaster on occassion. WEG would not have lost the Star Wars license. Atlas games would have still come out with some cool stuff. SJG might still be actively supporting Car Wars. Deadlands and 7th Sea would be doing just fine without being overshadowed by D20. Cyberpunk might have finished being revised after the Fuzion fiasco. I am sure there are many other games that would have fared differently. (Maybe better, maybe worse, but they would have stood more on their own merit rather than being overshadowed by speculative buzz and marketing from WotC.)
I think there still would have been a place for RPGNow as a greater number of smaller systems would have needed an efficient mechanism to get product out to potential consumers. RPGNow still has quite a few non-D20 games even today. It might not have been RPGNow, but there would have been room in the market for that distribution model.
Would it be a better gaming environment or a worse one? That is hard to speculate on. I think D20 has been a strengthening force in my experience though.
CarlZog
Explorer
I'll chime on the sentiments that one of the other RPG companies like Steve Jackson would probably have picked it up and continued to produce material on a comparatively small scale.
However, it's also quite likely that Hasbro might have just grabbed it then instead of later. What they would have done with TSR's material at the time is most likely a dismal alternative to the course WotC took. I imagine TSR would have suffered the same fate Avalon Hill did.
Carl
However, it's also quite likely that Hasbro might have just grabbed it then instead of later. What they would have done with TSR's material at the time is most likely a dismal alternative to the course WotC took. I imagine TSR would have suffered the same fate Avalon Hill did.
Carl
To correct a misapprehension many people have expressed in this thread, not buying TSR does not mean Wizards could not purchase D&D.
In Chapter 7 involuntary bankruptcy (the kind TSR was heading for) assets are sold off to raise money to pay debts. Often for pennies on the dollar. As I understand it, Wizards bought TSR for as low as they did by pointing out to TSR's management that going into bankruptcy meant less money for TSR's principals, plus the legal fees attendent with bankruptcy proceedures.
It does mean Wizards would've had to wait a few years to buy D&D, and might have faced competition from other companies. But, with the money earned from Magic: The Gathering Wizards was better able to afford a bidding war.
Where big corporations are concerned, why would they bother? An Atari wants to do a D&D video or computer game, just wait until the trademark lapses. At one time TSR printed a small number of copies of Dragonquest 3e annually and distributed them, just to keep the Dragonquest trademark alive. TSR goes into Chapter 7 in 1999. It's now very late 2005 and a computer game company announces the 2006 release of the new Dungeons and Dragons adventure game.
Two alternatives folks haven't considered are ...
1. The Dille Family Trust assumes ownership of D&D. The DTF then licenses a company to produce D&D products. Most likely Wizards, but maybe some other company.
2. The Dille Family Trust assumes ownership of D&D and forms a company to publish the property. Assigning a member of the board with some actual business acumen and experience to head it.
What this might lead to I shall leave up to respondents to this posting.
In Chapter 7 involuntary bankruptcy (the kind TSR was heading for) assets are sold off to raise money to pay debts. Often for pennies on the dollar. As I understand it, Wizards bought TSR for as low as they did by pointing out to TSR's management that going into bankruptcy meant less money for TSR's principals, plus the legal fees attendent with bankruptcy proceedures.
It does mean Wizards would've had to wait a few years to buy D&D, and might have faced competition from other companies. But, with the money earned from Magic: The Gathering Wizards was better able to afford a bidding war.
Where big corporations are concerned, why would they bother? An Atari wants to do a D&D video or computer game, just wait until the trademark lapses. At one time TSR printed a small number of copies of Dragonquest 3e annually and distributed them, just to keep the Dragonquest trademark alive. TSR goes into Chapter 7 in 1999. It's now very late 2005 and a computer game company announces the 2006 release of the new Dungeons and Dragons adventure game.
Two alternatives folks haven't considered are ...
1. The Dille Family Trust assumes ownership of D&D. The DTF then licenses a company to produce D&D products. Most likely Wizards, but maybe some other company.
2. The Dille Family Trust assumes ownership of D&D and forms a company to publish the property. Assigning a member of the board with some actual business acumen and experience to head it.
What this might lead to I shall leave up to respondents to this posting.
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