What if. . .WotC never bought TSR?

[kenobi65]

It was when the DFT withdraw its support that TSR's decline became a collapse.

Hmmm, I hadn't heard that part. The story, as I had read it (and this was probably from a Ryan Dancey post back on Eric Noah's site) was that Random House (which distributed TSR products to stores like B. Dalton and Waldonbooks) had, every year, agreed to take a big shipment from TSR at the end of the fiscal year, so that TSR could make their financial numbers.

One year ('96, IIRC), Random House refused to do this, and TSR's financial house of cards collapsed.

 

[francisca]

You first - note that WotC never released any numbers that conclusively proved that RPGs are more popular now than they were in the late 1990s. Sure, they said as much - but saying as much and proving it aren't the same thing. Why should naysayers provide hard-coded numbers if the argument that they're refuting was never suppoprted by same said numbers to begin with?

I agree. That's why I non-snarkilly asked him to "show me the numbers" to back his claim.

 

[Steel_Wind]

The IP would have been sold to somebidy else in a liquidation - either by a secured creidtor or by the Trustee in Bankruptcy had they been forced into that situation. A trustee can't sit on an asset - it must be sold.

Forgotten Realms would have reverted to Ed Greenwood. THAT would been an eyebrow raiser I suppose.

Whether we would have had 3E in the form similar to what it is now or whether there would have been an OGL is very debatable. But we would still have D&D and there would have still been a 3E. And D&D would still be the King.

If you think for a minute that Palladium or WW or ICE or Steve JAckson would now be king o the hill - you're way off base. Even in its death throes, AD&D as a brand and the various TSR setting properties WERE the market. The rest of it didn't amount to a pitcher of warm ... spit.

And they still don't.

 

[Rogue765]

If TSR had been sold off piecemeal in bankrupcy and D&D had been bought just for the name, with no intention of continuing the game line, that would have left a big void for a fantasy rpg that SOMEONE would have filled. Perhaps the designers of 3E would have released the rules they created under a different name, perhaps without the competition Wizards would have created Magic:The Gathering:The Role Playing Game

But my favorite scenario is this: TSR would have been forced to sell off ALL of it's properties, including a small, forgotten game that Gary could have purchased for a song, a purchase that would have proven the Klingon proverb that revenge is a dish best served cold. He could have produced:

Dangerous Journeys Second Edition

 

[mythusmage]

Hmmm, I hadn't heard that part. The story, as I had read it (and this was probably from a Ryan Dancey post back on Eric Noah's site) was that Random House (which distributed TSR products to stores like B. Dalton and Waldonbooks) had, every year, agreed to take a big shipment from TSR at the end of the fiscal year, so that TSR could make their financial numbers.

One year ('96, IIRC), Random House refused to do this, and TSR's financial house of cards collapsed.

It's the sort of situation where a number of factors came together to bring a company down. Unanticipated events, withdrawal of support, that sort of thing. All in all it was a disaster long in the making, fraught with miscalculation and heavy with unintended consequences. In short, it's the sort of thing that happens when a company is being run by people who haven't a clue. Nor do they show any sign of knowing what a clue was if it came up and bit them on the boys. (A part of the male anatomy that is much more than the clan's precious stones. And that's as specific as I can get without Eric's Grandmother getting wise to me.)

TSR's death was due to a long litany of basic errors of the kind you'd hope first year MBA majors avoided. Indeed, the TSR saga could be used as an object lesson in how not to run a company.

 

[mythusmage]

But my favorite scenario is this: TSR would have been forced to sell off ALL of it's properties, including a small, forgotten game that Gary could have purchased for a song, a purchase that would have proven the Klingon proverb that revenge is a dish best served cold. He could have produced:

Dangerous Journeys Second Edition

Here's the thing, in 1998 Gary wanted nothing to do with DJ. The lawsuit had taken a lot out of him and he was laying low for awhile. After the legal fees were taken care of even a 7 figure payment from TSR for DJ (private correspondence) didn't go far.

But, there were people looking to get DJ revived. We even went so far as to petition WotC when Wizards bought TSR. As I recall, Ryan Dancey's response to my query on the subject was that Wizards had no intention of seeing anything non-D&D coming out. It would all be D&D or d20 as far as Renton was concerned. There was also apparently a condition to the sale of TSR that said DJ could not be revived, or even disposed of. One Lorraine Williams simply didn't want the hated Gary Gygax's game back on the market. (Yes, people can be that petty.) Considering how Adkison returned the rights to Talislanta and Legend of the 5 Rings to their original owners, and sold Ars Magica to Atlas Games for a pittance, I think it entirely possible he would have sold DJ to another party had that been an option.

On the other hand, I don't think Hasbro is party to that particular agreement. So if they told WotC to sell DJ, then WotC would sell DJ. And stuff Lorraine's complaints.

BTW, we did have plans for DJ 2E. Considering how 1e was rushed into publication, it needed serious work.

 

[King of Old School]

Ok, so obviously this is one of those edition-war posts masquerading as something about RPG sales.

No, it's a statement that in the mid-90s there were a number of companies producing a healthy flow of RPG product, and now there are significantly fewer companies producing less product (unless you count PDF sales, which aren't remotely the same thing). I'm not talking about the quality of products at all.

Do you know what Occam's Razor is?

KoOS

EDIT AND PS: A very Merry Christmas to all those Wizards' staff who were just laid off in this highwater era of RPG popularity...

 

[RangerWickett]

An interesting question on my mind is, how would D&D and gaming be different if Hasbro hadn't bought WotC?

 

[Aeson]

We'd all be playing Hackmaster most likely....

NOOOOO!!! Say it isn't so!!

 

[Aeson]

D&D as performed by Walmart. Domination & Demolition. Walmart buys the rights then proceeds to make it the only RPG in the world and put all competition out of business. Headquarters wopuld be moved to Arkansas. Printing will be moved to a 3rd world country but say made in the USA. Due to cost cutting measures the price would NOT be $40 a book but all books would 19.98 and then rolled back to 15.98.