D&D 5E What is a Warlord [No, really, I don't know.]

You've had a range of replies to this. Here's mine.

4e has bounded accuracy only if you strip out the +0.5 per level from all defences and attack bonuses. Some 4e groups did that - that maths is obviously very simple - but most didn't.

Not just defenses and attack bonuses, but didn't it also apply to skills? Forum discussions have led me to believe that to be the case.

Discussion in this thread makes it sound like 4E was pretty much the exact opposite of bounded accuracy, althoug you can see how one led to the other. "Everything scales" => "this is pointless" => "nothing scales". The big difference between them is that when nothing scales, you can fight wildly level-"inappropriate" threats and it works out. For a gamer who only wants to tangle with level-appropriate threats anyway (+/- 5 levels, as Hussar said), I can see how they might get the idea that this is old hat that already existed in 4E anyway. But to someone like myself who throws 20th level threats at 3rd level characters, I see that there's no way I could possibly have done that in a system that didn't have fairly flat math, and that makes it look like Bounded Accuracy is a 5E innovation--or rather, it's a major part of what makes 5E feel familiar enough to be worth playing. I know what AC 15 means in 5E, it's basically "rock-hard like a Gargoyle," just as AC 0 in AD&D meant "like a knight in elaborate full plate and a shield." However, when I played 3E computer games like Icewind Dale II, I had no clue what AC 37 was or how it was different from AC 43, except inasmuch as they both fell off the d20 at different points when you're fighting on Impossible mode against high-level monsters like Sherincal.

If it weren't for Rodney Thompson and Bounded Accuracy there is no way I'd waste my time on 5E, and I think the lack of it is a major reason for my prior lack of interest in 3E-era D&D. Perhaps the primary reason.
 

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You've had a range of replies to this. Here's mine.

4e has bounded accuracy only if you strip out the +0.5 per level from all defences and attack bonuses. Some 4e groups did that - that maths is obviously very simple - but most didn't.

With the 0.5 per level not stripped out, what 4e is famous for is the fact that you can scale monsters up or down trivially easily. I think nearly all 4e GMs did this.

(EDIT: 4e doesn't really have summoning spells in the sense that you mean.)

I would have thought there's an obvious third option - put them onto the same rationing system that 5e uses for clerics and fighter's Second Wind, namely, uses per rest.

Right, what Pemerton said is accurate: by default, 4e absolutely had nothing remotely like bounded accuracy, and actually codified the "treadmill" effect even more explicitly than any edition before it.

This house rule Pemerton suggests, though, probably would have worked pretty much effortlessly. There would still be a lot of magic item treadmill, but that could've also been excised with just a bit more work (the handy "assumed magic +" table in the Dark Sun 4e guide would've helped.)

I have never heard of anyone doing any of this. But then, I played all of two short-lived 4e campaigns before I moved to a Basic/3E6 home brew mashup and never looked back.

If this 4e bounded accuracy hack was actually common, that's really cool.
 

Not just defenses and attack bonuses, but didn't it also apply to skills? Forum discussions have led me to believe that to be the case.

Discussion in this thread makes it sound like 4E was pretty much the exact opposite of bounded accuracy, althoug you can see how one led to the other. "Everything scales" => "this is pointless" => "nothing scales". The big difference between them is that when nothing scales, you can fight wildly level-"inappropriate" threats and it works out. For a gamer who only wants to tangle with level-appropriate threats anyway (+/- 5 levels, as Hussar said), I can see how they might get the idea that this is old hat that already existed in 4E anyway. But to someone like myself who throws 20th level threats at 3rd level characters, I see that there's no way I could possibly have done that in a system that didn't have fairly flat math, and that makes it look like Bounded Accuracy is a 5E innovation--or rather, it's a major part of what makes 5E feel familiar enough to be worth playing. I know what AC 15 means in 5E, it's basically "rock-hard like a Gargoyle," just as AC 0 in AD&D meant "like a knight in elaborate full plate and a shield." However, when I played 3E computer games like Icewind Dale II, I had no clue what AC 37 was or how it was different from AC 43, except inasmuch as they both fell off the d20 at different points when you're fighting on Impossible mode against high-level monsters like Sherincal.

If it weren't for Rodney Thompson and Bounded Accuracy there is no way I'd waste my time on 5E, and I think the lack of it is a major reason for my prior lack of interest in 3E-era D&D. Perhaps the primary reason.

The first thought I had when I read about bounded accuracy was that the 5e designers had decided to take the E6 variant of 3rd Edition (where you stop leveling at level 6), and stretch it across 20 levels of play. Since E6 formed a pillar of my favorite D&D-inspired games, that's exactly what drew me back to official D&D.
 

Some people think that NPCs or even other players should be able to use Intimidate, Persuade, and Deceive on Player Characters, by rolling the skill, and that after a successful role the player should roleplay the result. That's a totally valid way to play, but to me that's impinging on my roleplaying prerogative. Fortunately it's up to each table to interpret this for themselves.
Except you should not have a problem with that at all, because in a "world full of magic and fantasy," that would include the abilities represented by skill rolls: i.e., skill rolls are magic, so you should be fine with them not impinging on your roleplaying as per your own criteria of acceptable roleplaying interference. ;)

So, yes, the class would bother me less if it were called the "Damsel" and all the abilities were based on helplessness and need of rescue, but that core mechanic of "my character is given some buff because of his strong emotions toward that other character" would still be there, and I truly believe that variant of roleplaying should not be canonized in the rules.
Except a 'damsel' is a role that any character should be able to fill within a group. ;)
 

Healer is a bit of a misconception also. Warlords don't "Heal", they generate Hit Point recovery through means other than Healing.

Also, arguably far more important than a list of mechanics and mechanical roles, are the narrative and roleplaying aspects you overlooked.
Man, these are just getting looong! :D
1) Healing is healing, restoring hit points. Bet it is in some dictionary online
2) Leaving out mechanics, any class can be played as anything else, including warlord or salesman, or wizard (providing you have enough wands and weird hat)
 

Not just defenses and attack bonuses, but didn't it also apply to skills? Forum discussions have led me to believe that to be the case.

Discussion in this thread makes it sound like 4E was pretty much the exact opposite of bounded accuracy, althoug you can see how one led to the other. "Everything scales" => "this is pointless" => "nothing scales". The big difference between them is that when nothing scales, you can fight wildly level-"inappropriate" threats and it works out. For a gamer who only wants to tangle with level-appropriate threats anyway (+/- 5 levels, as Hussar said), I can see how they might get the idea that this is old hat that already existed in 4E anyway. But to someone like myself who throws 20th level threats at 3rd level characters, I see that there's no way I could possibly have done that in a system that didn't have fairly flat math, and that makes it look like Bounded Accuracy is a 5E innovation--or rather, it's a major part of what makes 5E feel familiar enough to be worth playing. I know what AC 15 means in 5E, it's basically "rock-hard like a Gargoyle," just as AC 0 in AD&D meant "like a knight in elaborate full plate and a shield." However, when I played 3E computer games like Icewind Dale II, I had no clue what AC 37 was or how it was different from AC 43, except inasmuch as they both fell off the d20 at different points when you're fighting on Impossible mode against high-level monsters like Sherincal.

If it weren't for Rodney Thompson and Bounded Accuracy there is no way I'd waste my time on 5E, and I think the lack of it is a major reason for my prior lack of interest in 3E-era D&D. Perhaps the primary reason.

Not really. It's just whether you like things done on the front or back end. In 5e it's on the front end. Everything floats around that 60% success rate and goes from there. For 4e, it works on the back end. You still get that 60% success rate simply because they tweak the target numbers relative to your level.

The end result is largely the same. In order to fight wildly inappropriate encounters, you'd tweak the opponents up or down. With the flat math, less tweaking has to be done obviously.
 

Warlord as an HP proxy war. :D

Allow me to see if I can sum up the issue without acrimony.

First, I should clarify that HP debates predate 4e. In point of fact they pre-date the Internet, and ARPA-net. Gary Gygax wrote a "clarification" of the concept way back in AD&D that muddied up the waters and people have been arguing about it ever since. 4e simply dragged the issue out in the open and made a declarative stance, which pissed off every one on the other side of the debate.

So. There are (roughly) two schools of thought on HP. One is crudely expressed as "meat points", where someone with a lot of HP simply is impossibly tough. The other side views HP as nebulous in form, combining morale, luck, fatigue and plot armour. In the second view "hits" which deal damage may not involve injury, or even contact, but still drain the character of a resource labled HP for convenience, it's only the final hit that drops a character that actually hurts. Maybe.

Part of the problem is that HP are not, and never have been a wound or injury tracking mechanism. When you get hit by a sword for 5 points of damage, you don't know where you were hit. You don't know if it was a cut or a bruise (strike failed to penetrate armour or you were struck with the flat of the blade.) And it doesn't matter. A hit in the leg doesn't slow down your movement. A hit in the arm doesn't reduce your manual skills. So for most of the history of D&D GMs have been free to narrate whatever special effects they wanted for combat, which copious stabbings, cuttings, and brutal bludgeonings. Other systems try to model wounds more directly, but in practice this leads to something called a death spiral where each injury dealt impairs the injured fighter so that he becomes less and less effective, until you are as useless as a screen door on a submarine, but have to keep playing because it's technically not over yet. So in practice HP are the worst mechanism for tracking damage in an RPG, except for all the other systems that have been tried from time to time. <- Apologies to Winston Churchill

So, the exact meaning of HP has never actually been exact, but in spite of this there are always corner cases where it must be acknowledged that actual, possibly horrific damage has been incurred but that the character is still functional. (E.G. Lava. Long falls onto sharp rocks. Weapons with venom.)

Now this was always kind of okay, because up until 4e healing was almost always magical in nature. So yes, Rognar may have just been chewed up and spat out by a dragon, but the Gods fixed him so we don't have to really think about it.

However in 4e, when a character has dropped due to damage, and is in fact dying (making death saves in 4e terms), the narration becomes tricky. If the character is brought back to his feet by a clerics healing spell, or a magic potion, then he could have been stabbed through the lung and brought back and it breaks no ones suspension of disbelief, however if he gets revived by a Warlord with non-magical healing then he must not have been that badly wounded after all, because improved morale does very little to help with sucking chest wounds.

This led to two possible narrative styles: One is often called Schrodinger's hit points, where the actual nature of the injury is resolved not at the time the injury is dealt but only when the character actually dies or receives healing at which point the DM narrates the action flash back style. Or the GM narrates whatever combat description he feels like, and then retcons it if it turns out not to match later outcomes, many people loathe retconning in all forms. Either way it breaks up the flow of combat descriptions that was an ingrained habit of many GMs leading into 4e.

There are other RPG systems where the details of a combat are not known until after it ends, at which point you can assign narrative to mechanical events that occurred within the conflict. At the extreme end you have the Heroquest system where you may not even know if the conflict was resolved with steel or words until after the fact, and less radically in Savage Worlds minor characters survival is determined after the fact like an archer scrounging arrows. But D&D prior to 4e never employed that sort of mechanical-narrative disconnect.

Now 4e not only took a firm stand against "meat points" (Although, ironically, with the bloodied mechanic it became the first version of D&D that actually specified levels of injury in any way), and in addition opened up a narrative-mechanical divide that was new to D&D, but the promotional materials leading into 4e were... needlessly antagonistic to prior editions, and prior ways of playing D&D. So older players were presented not only with a radical change in the way the game was played, but many felt like they were being deliberately insulted for having enjoyed the game the way they had been playing it. It was not a brilliant marketing success.

I'm hoping I managed to sum this up without offending either side (especially considering that presenting it as a merely two-sided debate is a considerable over simplification.)
You forgot the "don't worry" camp.

That is, by writing so many words your post comes across as hit points being some kind of complex and difficult issue. And it is.

If you choose to let it be.

Otherwise you simply don't think too hard on hp, and there simply is no problem [emoji4]
 

You misconstrued what I said. The other classes that filled the healer/support 'leader' role in 4e have greatly expanded abilities, both in terms of daily resources and in terms of flexibility. The range of things the class can do is still similar, but the number of times, relative power, and choice of which of those things a PC does on a give day or round is greatly expanded. If the Warlord were just ported over with the very limited AEDU resource mix, and the narrow confines of formal role, it would be under-powered and under-flexible, and a non-viable choice.

I'm sorry Tony but you're setting up a strawman here. Nobody is discussing the Warlord as a piss-poor direct transfer bad design job, so why even bring that up?

Sincerely yours,
Zapp
 

I think it's both too soon, and, even at this point, not entirely fair, to say that 5e has completely failed to enable the same styles of play that 4e did. It has done a better job capturing classic playstyles (a wonderful job!), and, with optional rules and modules, manages 3e styles, as well, if some perhaps, a trifle muted, while having much less support for styles enabled by 4e. But, things like overnight healing and the marking module do hint at a willingness to eventually support more of the styles of play that 4e did so well.

It's also a very weighty accusation, as 5e was conceived with the idea of supporting more styles than past editions, not fewer. Failure to cover styles that any past edition did would be a failure to meet it's most basic, existential goal.

Considering what the AD&D -> 3.0 conversion documents were like, I'm not holding out much hope. The best way to convert among games or editions is generally just to start with the same character concept, and see what you can come up with.
What I'm saying is that currently 5e feels and plays like a vastly different game than 4e.

We seem to agree on that any conversion document needs to make comprehensive changes and not be afraid to make deep alterations to the 5e game and its gameplay to be successful, if the measure of success is "now I'm using the 5e chassis and it feels like 4e".

Like you, I don't see this happening if all they plan is a perfunctory mimimal-effort kind of document.

For AD&D or PF that will probably be helpful to some, since the underlying gameplay isn't completely dissimilar.

But 4e to 5e? Not a chance.

To say it with other words: if the conversion doesn't piss people off, it won't be successful ;-)
 

This house rule Pemerton suggests, though, probably would have worked pretty much effortlessly. There would still be a lot of magic item treadmill, but that could've also been excised with just a bit more work (the handy "assumed magic +" table in the Dark Sun 4e guide would've helped.)

I have never heard of anyone doing any of this. But then, I played all of two short-lived 4e campaigns before I moved to a Basic/3E6 home brew mashup and never looked back.

If this 4e bounded accuracy hack was actually common, that's really cool.
As I said, I think stripping out the .5 per level bonus was not very common. "Inherent bonuses" in lieu of magic items, on the other hand, was being implemented within hours of the 4e books being released - the maths is utterly trivial - and first appeared in print in the DMG2. (Ie well before Dark Sun.)

Not just defenses and attack bonuses, but didn't it also apply to skills? Forum discussions have led me to believe that to be the case.
Stripping out the .5 per level from skills creates more complications, especially when it comes to adjudicating jumping in combat. But yes, it could be done.

Discussion in this thread makes it sound like 4E was pretty much the exact opposite of bounded accuracy, althoug you can see how one led to the other. "Everything scales" => "this is pointless" => "nothing scales".
The point of scaling in 4e is not mechanical progression. Mechanical progression is achieved via the power system (eg condition infliction steps up from slow and perhaps daze at low levels to domination and stun at Epic; utility abilities scale from invisibility to phasing and flying; etc).

The point of scaling in 4e is story progression: PCs start out tangling with kobolds and finish up tangling with Orcus.

(To the extent that kobolds are still part of default 4e Epic tier adventuring, they would be handled in combat via the swarm rules, or as an army to be defeated in a skill challenge.)

This sort of story progression is quite different from the story implications of bounded accuracy.
 

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