What is fresh in fantasy?

Tallarn said:
Thomas Covenant? Really? OK, I'm more curious than I was about Monte Cooks's book then. Those books have some really great ideas mixed in with some really awful ones, but I'm sure Monte would tend towards taking more of the former...:D

dig out your old White Dwarf collection from the early 80's.

they had the monsters stat for the Thomas Covenant series.

ur-viles, giants, and such....
 
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The Mirrorball Man said:
The easiest way to escape from the cliches of fantasy is to get rid of the western european flavor (and of the Chinese/Japanese flavor as well). West African fantasy, Indian fantasy, South American fantasy all have a lot of potential.

While that works great for us westerners, I am sure that Indians and West Africans would view fantasy based on thier past culture much the same ho hum way we look at Tolkein and all medieval fantasy stuff. I think stepping away from cultures completely is the ticket to true originality. Thing is to do so you need more than just a fantasy novel. Your story needs to be backed up by multimedia. To really pull it off you would have to make music, design clothing, determine when "magitech" comes into play in society.

Basicly in fantasy magic sort of hamstrings industry much in the same way slavery did in the anchient world.

Hrm, I'm rambling...

Aaron.
 

jester47 said:
While that works great for us westerners, I am sure that Indians and West Africans would view fantasy based on thier past culture much the same ho hum way we look at Tolkein and all medieval fantasy stuff.

Aaron.

I dunno about that. Tolkein took all of these preexisting elements of Western mythology and folklore and made them into something new. Maybe there is some sort of Indian equivalent of Tolkein who has done the same with his own culture's mythology, but I haven't heard of any such writer.

If there were such a Indian Tolkein, I wonder if we'd read him [Westerners, I mean]. Presumably his work would reflect a different set of moral values than what we're used to.

The weak overcoming the mighty, the value of the individual over the faceless hordes, the potential nobility and heroism present in every person...these are the elements of Tolkein's writing that ring true to us. How would we handle a fantasy epic that values knowing one's place, accepting one's fate, and seeking fulfillment through service?

It's interesting to look at something like Legend of the Five Rings as an attempt to build a full-scale "fantasy world" based around another set of cultural premises.
 

JPL said:
I dunno about that. Tolkein took all of these preexisting elements of Western mythology and folklore and made them into something new. Maybe there is some sort of Indian equivalent of Tolkein who has done the same with his own culture's mythology, but I haven't heard of any such writer.

Would Octavia Butler count? She has some intriguing fantasy stories loosely based on African culture.

Of course, she is nowhere near as influential as Tolkein, but were are talking about fresh, not popular, neh?
 

Psion said:
Of course, she is nowhere near as influential as Tolkein, but were are talking about fresh, not popular, neh?


i don't think Tolkein would say he was popular during his day with the general population.

not like Hemingway, F.Scott Fitzgerald, or other contemporaries.
 

Christian Walker said:
These days I've been running games where the only sentient race native to the planet are humans. Add a bit of magic, infernal interference, and good ol' human cruelty, and that's enough to keep me going.
J.V. Jones, the Book of Words trilogy (and her other stuff) Excellent human only worlds.
 

Psion said:
Would Octavia Butler count? She has some intriguing fantasy stories loosely based on African culture.

Of course, she is nowhere near as influential as Tolkein, but were are talking about fresh, not popular, neh?

I haven't heard of her [no surprise, as I'm out of the fantasy lit loop right now]. There is certainly a lot of material to draw from in African mythology...I guess all that's missing is a genius like Tolkein who combined a scholar's exhaustive knowledge of the source material with a poet's creative abilities and vision.

I'd say that Perdido Street Station is as fresh a book as I've read in a long while. It's industrial age weirdness. It's a fantasy gumbo....lots of different ingredients...
 

In terms of books...

I think recently there's been a renewed appreciation of "classic" fantasy R. E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, Dunsany, with their books being more available than they were. The field is focused less on Tolkien than it was. There's also been a massive boom in young adult and children's fantasy (post-Potter), I'm not really in a position to say much about this. Its effect on the genre is and will be huge though.

In terms of "traditional" fantasy things are really exciting. There was lots of post-Tolkien trash. Things are really improving though. Important books which moved the genre on include Guy Gavriel Kay's books (Fionavar Tapestry) which are really original and not derivative and Tad Williams The Dragonbone Chair (a huge influence on George R. R. Martin). The very recent big, well thought of series are Robin Hobb's Farseer books - which are character based - and George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire - which is epic fantasy with a sword-and-sorcery sensibility.
 

Steven Brust and Steven Erikson.

Brust writes witty, TIGHT novels with watchspring-like plots, snappy dialog and neat, well-structured sentences. Just watching him put words together is a treat. Add to that the fact that he's forever pushing at the boundaries of what the form will allow and you've got the best writer in fantasy today.

Erikson has created a world so packed with characters and history and events and powers that it's impossible to keep track of everything that's happening, but he's such a good writer you just get carried away regardless. I've never before encountered a writer who spent so little time making sure his audience was keeping up; you NEVER get a few pages' worth of exposition to explain "The situation as it is now". The characters all know the situation so they never bother explaining it -- you just have to try and ferret out the clues and figure out what's happening. Fun stuff. And what he's attempting to do, to talk about, is of such breath-taking scope that I'm honestly blown away.

Those two aside, I'll contest the suggestion that Martin is bringing fresh ideas in -- he's a good enough writer but I don't see he's doing anything new. Likewise Mieville, who I think owes most of his fame to the fact that PSS starts with a weird bug sex scene than anything else. Cause he's not much of a writer and his ideas are second-hand.

The classics remain fresh. Lord Dunsany is a writer I've only just discovered and he's AMAZING. Unlike anything you've ever read, I guarantee it (unless, of course, you've read Lord Dunsany). Lieber, Herbert, Howard, Tolkien -- these are writers who stand the test. Lovecraft (when he's good) and Burroughs (the first few books in any series, at least) also keep influencing people.

Most fantasy published in the last, say, twenty years (ever since The Sword of Shannara came out, I think, and proved there was a much bigger market than people had thought) has felt very contrived and derivative to me. It's mostly been people either attempting to copy Tolkien (dumbing him down in the process), or attempting to introduce dragons and unicorns into what are essentially romance novels. Potboilers, for the most part, done to varying degrees of skill, but still maintaining that whole "Will they escape in time? Will the guy and the girl get together? Will the bad guys triumph?" sort of story-telling that, while fine enough in and of itself, isn't very INTERESTING, intellectually speaking. It has nothing to say and it might as well not be a fantasy story -- the fantasy elements are for the most part purely marketing qualities (whether the authors think of them that way or not).

Very few writers in ANY field accomplish anything very interesting from one year to the next (Sturgeon's Law). Just being able to tell a good story is a rare enough gift.
 

Hafta agree with quite a few folks on this one--the classics are the way to go. Keep their vitality & freshness despite the passage of time.

Leiber's Fafhrd & Grey Mouser works are a good example of a unique fantasy/sword-&-sorcery setting. Many of the characters & its foes are human, but the there are some interesting non-human characters in the setting: the sentient Rats of Lankhmar Below; the crystal-fleshed cannibalistic Ghouls; the wierd & alien wizards Sheelba of the Eyeless Face & Ningauble of the Seven Eyes; the scaled, sinister Simorgyans; the Ice Gnomes; the alien Devourers; and the Invisibles of Stardock.

It also has a unique twist in other elements as well: the continually rising & falling land bridge known as the Sinking Land; Ningauble's Caves (which link between dimensions/realities); the Shadowland (an actual realm of the dead on the world, where Death & his victims reside); and the underground rat metropolis of Lankhmar Below.

The setting is typical of an earlier age, but it's unclear whether if it's medieval, dark ages, renaissance, iron age, or some weird mix of all of the above. Viking-like Northerners and Mongol-like Mingols rub shoulders with courtesans and rapier-wielding bravos in the decadent, Rome-like city of Lankhmar. Pretty interesting stuff.

LeGuin's Earthsea works are a unique twist to fantasy, as well. The world is dominated by water, with only a cluster of islands available for the human populace to dwell on. It is more of an earlier age (closer to a Bronze Age or Iron Age setting than anything else), and magic, in its essence, is the knowledge of words of power & true names, and the power that having/using those terms have on the world around you.

For some somewhat newer fare, the Thieves' World anthology is another interesting setting. It's human-dominant as well, but focuses on life in a single city. The occassional non-human/semi-human races are encountered (like the winged creatures in 1 short story; or the aquatic Beysibs), but it's all about life & death in Sanctuary. However, as the stories/books progress, the power level is multiplied significantly (& it messes up the city severely). At the end of the first series, the city's been conquered, divided by warring factions, & faced visits/annihilation from various deities.

Though comedic, Asprin's Myth Adventures series is something different, as well: demons are basically dimensional travellers who visit other worlds--many monsters (like devils & trolls) are merely residents from other realities. It's a more magic-heavy setting, but magic is the key thing which makes dimensional travel feasible.

And, I haven't even mentioned stuff like Elric of Melnibone, the Welsh myth-inspired Prydain Chronicles, the pre-historic Earth of Conan, or other works.

I think that "freshness" is not necessarily inventing something new from wholecloth & using it, but can be just using existing ideas and concepts from a different perspective. Asprin's Myth Adventures does this by turning monsters from strange beasts into extradimensional travellers/merchants/vacationers. Both Howard & Leiber use a mish-mash of familiar elements and weird inventions to create unique worlds of their own.

And, despite the characters & the settings, the basic themes of the stories remain the same; grim-&-gritty adventure; an epic quest; a journey of self-discovery; a tale of love and romance; exploration of the unknown; a chronicle of aspirations and struggles for power; a tale of revenge; the solving of a mystery/problem; etc.
 

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