What is it with Sage Advice & Tome of Battle?

[hong]

Its just more of an example of power creep in the game. More power, at earlier levels = power creep. I'm not denouncing the trend, just calling a cat a cat.

Unfortunately, in so doing you appear to have called a dog a cat. Bad Technik4!

 

[Technik4]

Even though the new magic options released over the years (Tome of Magic, the new spontaneous casters, the new druid variant in PHB II & the polymorph subschool) have been weaker than core spellcasting, this all gets ignored yet since ToB is power creep, this proves that there has been power creep in the system?

Again, as Piratecat pointed out, there are some books which are on the curve and some above and below. Pointing out that they printed books which do not cause power creep does not somehow negate the books they print that do cause it.

Tome of Magic and PHB II are weaker than core casters? What about Spell Compendium and Complete Mage?

Nevermind that you have not proven that the ORIGINAL core system itself is balanced?

Why is there an onus on me to prove such a thing? When 3rd edition came out the cleric was hailed as the most powerful class. The designers admitted to increasing the power level of the cleric because their data suggested people did not enjoy playing clerics. The ORIGINAL core system is balanced, to a point (in terms of a group of 4-5 PCs fighting monsters). With options for more damage, the ability to fight more encounters per day, more versatility, and better feats and PrCs since 3rd edition came out it seems asinine to suggest there hasn't been a power creep.

However, to reiterate, if it lets you have more fun, it isn't a bad thing. But lets not pretend its not happening (just as it happened in 2nd edition).

Unfortunately, in so doing you appear to have called a dog a cat. Bad Technik4!

How so?

 

[hong]

Why is there an onus on me to prove such a thing?

Someone made the assertion that certain classes are more powerful (an entirely reasonable assertion, I might add). You disputed that assertion. Show why people should believe you.

 

[hong]

How so?

I was under the impression that

These days you can play a low-level warlock and zap things until you pass out from exhaustion.​

was meant to be an example of how power levels had increased. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

 

[Technik4]

You disputed that assertion.

The classes do not exist in a vacuum. They should not be evaluated against each other, or even necessarily side-by-side because it is always a group of adventurers overcoming challenges, not mortal kombat-style duels (generally speaking). The cleric can wear heavy armor, heal, and attack very well. That does not make him better than a fighter, or slightly inferior to a druid who could potentially wildshape into a fearsome animal and attack better than the cleric.

I guess I should have ended that with 'Because there is more to the game than just combat'. A cleric has a lot of story-baggage that some players don't want to deal with it. You won't find that on a chart or in side-by-side stat evaluations though.

The Warlock is situationally stronger than any magical class printed before it.

I realize the Warlock does not have the capabilities of some of the core casters. I think I pointed out that I don't, personally, have a problem with the class. My argument was simply that he can do something no one could do before him. He doesn't need arrows, but he can make a ranged attack every round. His attacks are magical in nature. He is situationally stronger than any magical class before him. I don't see how you can dispute that it is a clear example of power creep, or what more I need to say to show you that it is.

 

[hong]

I guess I should have ended that with 'Because there is more to the game than just combat'. A cleric has a lot of story-baggage that some players don't want to deal with it. You won't find that on a chart or in side-by-side stat evaluations though.

Demonstrate that said story-baggage is relevant to the campaigns of a majority, or at least a substantial minority of gamers. Because said story-baggage is, in my experience and that of most people I know, a much bigger issue for paladins.

 

[BASHMAN]

Since Dragon is going to stop being made anyway, isn't this a non-issue now?

 

[Technik4]

Demonstrate that said story-baggage is relevant to the campaigns of a majority, or at least a substantial minority of gamers. Because said story-baggage is, in my experience and that of most people I know, a much bigger issue for paladins.

I agree that a paladin has a lot more baggage than most clerics. Do you agree that clerics have more baggage than most fighters?

 

[hong]

I realize the Warlock does not have the capabilities of some of the core casters. I think I pointed out that I don't, personally, have a problem with the class. My argument was simply that he can do something no one could do before him.

That is not, in itself, power creep. That simply indicates the class is designed around a different set of assumptions to other classes. For it to be power creep, those assumptions would have to be a worse fit to how the game is played than what the other classes used, thus allowing the warlock to abuse its abilities in ways that weren't intended. All the evidence thus far indicates this is not the case in most games.

He doesn't need arrows, but he can make a ranged attack every round.

Demonstrate that this is, in practice, superior to what an archer of the same level can do, taking into account the ease with which archers can obtain ammo.

His attacks are magical in nature. He is situationally stronger than any magical class before him.

Demonstrate that these "situations" are those which will arise in the game as it is played.

I don't see how you can dispute that it is a clear example of power creep, or what more I need to say to show you that it is.

It's very easy. Just show that the warlock will actually have an opportunity, in the majority of games, to spam magical attacks for hours on end.

 

[hong]

I agree that a paladin has a lot more baggage than most clerics. Do you agree that clerics have more baggage than most fighters?

Nope. Well, unless you insist on playing a cleric of Erythnul or something, but that's your lookout.