What is it with Sage Advice & Tome of Battle?

[Technik4]

The fact that it is balanced for play is all that matters.

That is not relevant to whether or not power creep is occurring. Are many of the new classes balanced for play? Yes. Do some of them represent power creep in the game? Yes.

If you don't want to believe the warlock can be situationally more powerful than a wizard or sorcerer, I'm sure you can elucidate us on how a swordsage can often be more powerful than a fighter.

 

[IanB]

How are we defining power creep, by the way?

If a class is added that is in every way better than the fighter, but is still weaker than the cleric, has power creep occurred?

In the classic CCG/CMG use of the term, that isn't power creep. Power creep the way I'm used to using it doesn't kick in until you've crept past the *most* powerful option. It isn't power creep if you obsolete something weak without raising the top end of power in the game.

Or are we using a different definition here? It seems like we are.

 

[Nail]

How are we defining power creep, by the way?

IMO: Supplement B has more powerful options than Supplement A.

For the most part, "more powerful" does NOT simply mean "more options", but means "options which are more effective".

ToB:Bo9S has more powerful classes and options than those in previous supplements, or indeed in the core books. Compare a Ftr to a martial adept class, for example. Etc.

 

[Nail]

As an aside, a Ftr would be absolutely nuts not to take at least a 1 level dip into the Warblade class. That should tell you something.

 

[blargney the second]

I prefer IanB's definition to Nail's.
-blarg

 

[Nail]

I prefer IanB's definition to Nail's.
-blarg

Okey-dokey.

Then I'm not talking about IanB's definition of power creep.

 

[hong]

That is not relevant to whether or not power creep is occurring. Are many of the new classes balanced for play? Yes. Do some of them represent power creep in the game? Yes.

Why are you picking on one poor sentence? What did it ever do to you? What about all those surrounding sentences, which are much tastier?

If you don't want to believe the warlock can be situationally more powerful than a wizard or sorcerer, I'm sure you can elucidate us on how a swordsage can often be more powerful than a fighter.

First, why don't you show me how a warlock is more powerful ON AVERAGE than a wizard, with none of this "situational" nonsense thrown in. Assume a distribution over situations. Take the expected value. The concept is not difficult.

So, as said before:

Show me how the game, taken as a whole including more than modules and a single convention adventure, leads to situations [where the warlock can spam attacks] being commonplace.​

 

[Technik4]

Show me how the game, taken as a whole including more than modules and a single convention adventure, leads to situations [where the warlock can spam attacks] being commonplace.

I gave you 2 examples and you didn't like either. That wasn't exactly encouraging me to find some more for you to outright dismiss. If you've ever been in a combat that lasts more than 10 rounds, you may have found yourself in a battle the warlock could spam attacks (think lower levels). Similarly, if you were being pursued by small groups of enemies (say through a forest), the ability of the warlock to use his ray attack in each encounter would be spammy spiffy. Finally if you were thinking of creating a plot mechanic for the BBEG to harnass an obscene amount of energy to <SOMETHING EVIL> then the warlock would certainly look like the prisoner (because wizards, clerics, and druids sleep too much).

Again, how many theoretical examples do you need before you agree, or are you just set on being contentious? Humor aside, the warlock's power comes up far more often than a party full of fireballing frogs.

The concept is not difficult.

The execution is clearly what I have a problem with. I never said "The Warlock is more powerful than the Wizard. Look at the obvious Power Creep!". I just said there are situations that are not extraordinarily uncommon in which the Warlock has the power to do things casters typically can't (or couldn't do). Spam energy until his HP is reduced to 0 (god forbid I say 'exhaust' again).

 

[hong]

I gave you 2 examples and you didn't like either. That wasn't exactly encouraging me to find some more for you to outright dismiss. If you've ever been in a combat that lasts more than 10 rounds, you may have found yourself in a battle the warlock could spam attacks.

I can remember... two combats that lasted more than 10 rounds, in the ~6 years since 3E's release, and I was the DM for one of them. It's not looking good for you so far.

Similarly, if you were being pursued by small groups of enemies (say through a forest), the ability of the warlock to use his ray attack in each encounter would be spammy spiffy.

I can think of... one combat where something remotely like this happened, and I was the DM. Nope, not looking good at all.

Finally if you were thinking of creating a plot mechanic for the BBEG to harnass an obscene amount of energy to <SOMETHING EVIL> then the warlock would certainly look like the prisoner (because wizards, clerics, and druids sleep too much).

... or he could just turn them all into toads, thus allowing ToadExplodingGuy to EXPLODE in a 100 dice FIREBALL OF DOOM! (Hint: BBEG scenarios are entirely under the control of the DM.)

And in any case, how exactly is the warlock being captured supposed to demonstrate it's more powerful in the hands of a player?

Again, how many theoretical examples do you need before you agree, or are you just set on being contentious?

Practical examples would be useful. As said:

Assume a distribution over situations. Take the expected value. The concept is not difficult.​

I'm waiting.

Humor aside, the warlock's power comes up far more often than a party full of fireballing frogs.

In the sense that 2 is twice as big as 1, yes.

 

[hong]

The execution is clearly what I have a problem with. I never said "The Warlock is more powerful than the Wizard. Look at the obvious Power Creep!".

Exactly. In a subthread about power creep, you called a dog a cat.

I just said there are situations that are not extraordinarily uncommon

Yes they are.