What is missing from 4E

[thecasualoblivion]

The characters have superpowers, not the items.

A 4E character can not teleport anywhere in the world as a standard action.
A 4E character cannot kill a fully healthy being with one spell.
A 4E character cannot deal +8d6 sneak attack with 6-8 attacks per round.
A 4E character cannot Power Attack for 15 with 3-4 attacks per round.
A 4E character cannot create an moving illusion with sound effects of anything that can fill a 40'ft cube as a standard action.
A 4E character cannot change shape into a Dragon or Triceratops.
A 4E character cannot cast a Wish spell.
A 4E character cannot dominate another sentient being for a significant amount of time as a standard action.
ect...

 

[Remathilis]

Among my group, I have one player who isn't 100% sold on 4E. Something is missing from 4E in his eyes, and what is missing is power. Raw, earthshaking power. In 3E, there were many ways to get raw, earthshaking power. Spells are one. Wildshaping into huge creatures was another. Others included piling up sneak attack damage combined with multiple attacks, power attacking insanity, and magic items that gave abilities beyond what your character class can off like Wings of Flying and the Ring of Invisibility.

The power to win or change the world in one action has been removed. This is what my player misses.

What 4e is missing is "I Win/You Lose" buttons.

D&D has always had a long list of powers that was guaranteed problem solvers. Typically, they were spells (disintegrate, power word kill, knock, sleep) but magic items could do it too (mace of disruption, vorpal sword, ring of invisibility).

The payoff for these "I wins" were either limited uses (spells/day) or DM fiat (if he didn't want you to have a vorpal, there isn't a chance in the 9 hells your getting one). In reality, it came down to there being mythical items and spells no sane DM would allow, lest his campaign take a dive south (did any DM before 3e allow their PCs to cast wish? really?)

4e took all that off the table by removing the I Wins along with the You Loses. Vorpals are a lot less threatening, disintegrate is not the fight-ender it once was, and auto-success spells like knock now take a die roll to use) There is also less corner case cheats (polymorph into WAR TROLL! I WIN!) or outright fight-ending magic (Forcecage).

Its possibly the best improvement to the game, but it takes the most getting used to. Because there is less "game changing powah", things feel a bit samey. There is no way to end a fight of your level or higher without a fight (and thus, there is no class that can dominate combat). Its a radically different feeling than previous D&D which relied on the doctrine of overwhelming force to take out a foe before he does something REALLY nasty (and proves to YOU what UNLIMITED POWAH really looks like!)

 

[Jack99]

So your player is complaining that 4th edition seems to be more balanced (for now - let's see how balancing still does when all the additional rulebooks will come out)?

And here I thought people already found out how to make powerful builds that surpass that of other players.

The possibility of making powerful builds, some of which only work in theory, does not equate a game without balance.

Difference is, you need to look for the unbalance. Previously, you only needed to make a caster.

What 4e is missing is "I Win/You Lose" buttons.

FROSTSHOCK!!!!​

 

[Derren]

A 4E character can not teleport anywhere in the world as a standard action.
A 4E character cannot kill a fully healthy being with one spell.
A 4E character cannot deal +8d6 sneak attack with 6-8 attacks per round.
A 4E character cannot Power Attack for 15 with 3-4 attacks per round.
A 4E character cannot create an moving illusion with sound effects of anything that can fill a 40'ft cube as a standard action.
A 4E character cannot change shape into a Dragon or Triceratops.
A 4E character cannot cast a Wish spell.
A 4E character cannot dominate another sentient being for a significant amount of time as a standard action.
ect...

A 4E character can regenerate his injuries within hours.
A 4E character does posses abilities that no one else in the world has.
ect...

 

[thecasualoblivion]

A 4E character can regenerate his injuries within hours.

As can 3E characters in any sane group whose DM doesn't actively prevent healing. At the very least, the above statement is true in 3E starting as early as level 3 or 4.

A 4E character does posses abilities that no one else in the world has.
ect...

You do realize you can make NPCs using Players Handbook powers using existing rules from the DMG? What exactly do players get that aren't available to the world at large?

 

[Fifth Element]

A 4E character can regenerate his injuries within hours.
A 4E character does posses abilities that no one else in the world has.
ect...

Yes, that's very different from 3E.

 

[FireLance]

A 4E character can regenerate his injuries within hours.

Only if you narrate hit point loss as receiving injuries, and regaining hit points as the healing of said injuries.

A 4E character does posses abilities that no one else in the world has.

How so? I can create an NPC with any of the abilities a PC has. I could even create an NPC with all the same abilities that a PC has, if I really wanted to bother.

ect...

What else?

 

[doctorhook]

A 4E character can not teleport anywhere in the world as a standard action.
A 4E character cannot kill a fully healthy being with one spell.
A 4E character cannot deal +8d6 sneak attack with 6-8 attacks per round.
A 4E character cannot Power Attack for 15 with 3-4 attacks per round.
A 4E character cannot create an moving illusion with sound effects of anything that can fill a 40'ft cube as a standard action.
A 4E character cannot change shape into a Dragon or Triceratops.
A 4E character cannot cast a Wish spell.
A 4E character cannot dominate another sentient being for a significant amount of time as a standard action.
ect...

Let's group these complaints:

Group 1: Things that could easily be in 4E in the future

• A 4E character can not teleport anywhere in the world as a standard action.
• A 4E character cannot create an moving illusion with sound effects of anything that can fill a 40'ft cube as a standard action.
• A 4E character cannot change shape into a Dragon or Triceratops.

Group 1 is made up of complaints about things that aren't currently in 4E, but can and probably will be in the future.

Faster teleportation could appear as a prepared ritual, illusions will almost certainly be expanded as the Arcane and Shadow power sources are developed, and shape-changing is nearly a given for the Primal power source, if nowhere else.

Solution: Be patient, or make these elements for yourself.
​

Group 2: Things that belong to another game, but are being expected of 4E

• A 4E character cannot deal +8d6 sneak attack...
  
• A 4E character cannot Power Attack for 15...
  
• A 4E character cannot dominate another sentient being for a significant amount of time as a standard action.

Group 2 is made up of game concepts from other games (primarily 3.5E, but not exclusively). These complaints are often analogous to, "This apple is a terrible orange! It's not orange and doesn't taste like an orange at all!"

Sneak Attack exists in 4E, and it's still capable of pretty obscene damage, but damage scales differently in 4E. Complaints about not being able to "do "+8d6 damage with SA" are as illegitimate as, "D&D characters are weaker than WoW characters, because WoW characters can do 10000 damage with a crit!" Power Attack is a similar situation. Domination exists in 4E, just not with the same definition it had in 3.5E; the nature of 4E determines that the mechanics of domination ought to operate differently.

Solution: Either let go of your hang-ups, or play the game you really want to play and forget about 4E.
​

Group 3: Things that are ultimately narrative by nature

• A 4E character cannot kill a fully healthy being with one spell.
• [A 4E character cannot attack] with 6-8 attacks per round.
• [A 4E character cannot attack] with 3-4 attacks per round.

Group 3 is made up of actions that are possible within the narrative of a 4E game, but aren't explicitly mentioned in the rules.

In 4E (and D&D in general), narration ultimately determines life and death, not hit points; characters reduced to the point of death live or die not by the rules but by the whims of the story and its drivers: the DM and players. Thus, your Magic Missile is fully capable of killing anyone whom you and your DM determine is adequately vulnerable to it, hit points be damned. Multiple attacks per round is much simpler; in 4E, characters usually only take one attack ACTION per round, but that attack action can be made up of numerous separate attacks, whose number is only limited by the narration your and your DM create. (For example, your Brute Strike attack might be a single smashing blow, but your friend's Brute Strike attack might instead be a furious onslaught of less dramatic cuts; either way the mechanical result is identical.)

Solution: Open your mind and take control of the story you're participating in.
​

Group 4: Several of the above

• A 4E character cannot cast a Wish spell.

Group 4 is made up of complaints which fit into more than one of the other three categories, to a much greater extent than most complaints.

A 4E character cannot cast a Wish spell because such a spell doesn't yet exist in 4E, but it might in the future. A 4E character cannot cast a Wish spell as you remember it from 3.5E, because that spell wouldn't fit into 4E. A 4E character CAN cast a Wish spell with the help of imaginative narration by player and DM.

Solution: See above solutions.
​

I think my work here is done.

 

[Halivar]

doctorhook, I think tco was refuting the idea that 4E was more "superhero-ey" than 3.x with counterexamples. I did not take it as a criticism of 4E.

 

[RefinedBean]

doctorhook, I think tco was refuting the idea that 4E was more "superhero-ey" than 3.x with counterexamples. I did not take it as a criticism of 4E.

Don't spoil it for the poor guy!

I'd agree as well, given the context.

As for what's missing from 4E, the obvious answer is Goddamn Half-Orcs. And don't give me any of that re-fluffing bullcrap! I love me some 4E, but c'mon...we get Eladrin and Tieflings over Half-Orcs. Blargh.