D&D 5E What is Quality?

[GMforPowergamers]

if we look at 3.0, it sold well at first. The sales dropped off quickly, and they had to release 3.5 in an attempt to resuscitate and fix it. Then, according to the people who worked on 4E, that version was rushed out more quickly than they would have liked because sales were not meeting company goals.

We don't see that pattern with 5. I largely credit the extensive playtest and development period and overall design decisions, although other serendipitous factors also of course come into play.

and yet here we are more or less on schedule talking about a new players handbook with updated rules in the same approximate length of time... each edition lasts 3,6,or 10 years... it is 8 and we already have talk and at 10 we will have it...

 

[Zubatcarteira]

My most common experience with the stealth rules is someone casting invisibility and thinking they're automatically hidden and no one knows where they are. It's definitely a weak spot in the rules.

I'd say 5e as a whole is fine, but there's definitely some pretty badly designed stuff. Doesn't necessarily comes up often in actual play, but it's annoying to deal with.

 

[eyeheartawk]

So quality is always in the eye of the beholder? There's never any way to measure it? Suppose for a minute that we could take a survey of D&D players on whether they like the stealth rules or dislike it. The vast majority like them as written. Does that make it a quality rule because it works for most people?

When talking about a creative work, like a painting, movie, book or game, yes. I don't understand why this is so shocking.

Or should people just, I don't know, instead of saying "The stealth rules are not well designed" say "I don't like the stealth rules"?

Because that's how people talk?

Let me ask you this: Do you think the unwritten part of the "The stealth rules are not well designed" statement that comes after is "in my opinion" or "I, of course, speak on behalf of everybody else on this planet" ?

 

[Oofta]

and yet here we are more or less on schedule talking about a new players handbook with updated rules in the same approximate length of time... each edition lasts 3,6,or 10 years... it is 8 and we already have talk and at 10 we will have it...

They came out with 3.5 3 years after release of 3.0, not 10. In any case it's hard to say how much will be updated until we see it. I suspect relatively small changes along the lines of what we see in the MotM and generic ability score adjustments from Volos along with minor wording changes and art.

I remember 3.5 being a fairly broad based attempt to fix the math of the system which only partially succeeded. After about 14th level a well built spellcaster made everyone else superfluous.

 

[Oofta]

When talking about a creative work, like a painting, movie, book or game, yes. I don't understand why this is so shocking.


Because that's how people talk?

Let me ask you this: Do you think the unwritten part of the "The stealth rules are not well designed" statement that comes after is "in my opinion" or "I, of course, speak on behalf of everybody else on this planet" ?

It's easy to say "I don't like" instead of "It's bad design".

 

[eyeheartawk]

It's easy to say "I don't like" instead of "It's bad design".

So, that's why we're here? Because of phrasing you don't like?

Also, that doesn't answer my question.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I was just thinking about how to make inspiration more noticeable. Maybe getting a chit with a very bright colored side and a dull colored side you flip. Something that really sticks out. For VTT you can have some coding that makes the box you mark glow or flash when you have an available point.

Just food for thought.

Haha! I think this warrants its own thread. Personally, I use poker chips that I put in front of me. I’ve noticed also that the in person games find it easier to track ( since it is physically there) than the online games.

I also just use it as a straight reroll, gives more of an incentive for players to track it (though it can also be used as advantage for the purposes of Sneak Attack or Elven Accuracy).

Three other tricks:

• I will never tease a player about asking for Inspiration for themselves or others. I WANT them to use it.
• In my session prep, I sometimes include notes about places where I think insp may come up to remind me;
• Whenever players try something that is mechanically suboptimal but cool, I always award inspiration (this varies a lot more group from group).

 

[James Gasik]

As an optional mechanic, Inspiration is fine. A lot of players don't like the "DM may I?" approach to advantage, and handing out advantage to players so they can get it when they need it, without pestering (or worse, arguing with) the DM isn't a big deal.

If players forget they have it, that's kind of on them, since again, I see this as a shorthand for giving you advantage without having to have a discussion about it. And it's nice to have a reward other than xp, since I kind of like having all my party members be the same level when I run games (it's not strictly necessary, but I don't have any compelling reasons to stagger advancement), and so I don't hand out bonus xp very often.

And yes, as pointed out, poker chips or other physical reminders are pretty easy to hand out for forgetful players.

If I have an issue with Inspiration, I guess it's that it's kind of boring. I preferred Action Points (or the very similar Hero Points used by Pathfinder), and honestly think they would be more fun for players.

I can't see how it would be very broken either, since Action Surge is a thing, but I'd have to try it out to be sure.

All this having been said, I'm not sure why we're on about Inspiration anyways. If we wanted to discuss rules elements that don't quite cut the mustard, I'd bring up Alignment, Backgrounds, or those fiddly little roleplay things on the character sheets like Bonds and Flaws that never seem to come up in play.

Or my biggest (non-optional) pet peeve: what to do with all that treasure anyways?

 

[Eric V]

Or should people just, I don't know, instead of saying "The stealth rules are not well designed" say "I don't like the stealth rules"?

I think it's more like people are saying "What stealth rules?"

 

[James Gasik]

I mean, there are Stealth rules, but they aren't very satisfying, and WotC has come out and said they had (supposedly) made better rules, but decided to leave it in the hands of the DM to decide how crunchy they want Stealth to be.

Which, while I despise having to do a game designer's work for them, I'm kind of used to having to house rule Stealth rules already, because they are typically too profound or nonsensical for my players to grok.

In earlier editions I generally avoid even taking Stealth/Hide/Move Silently, because of the many ways it can simply fail to be of much use, regardless of my level of skill.