D&D 5E What is Quality?

eyeheartawk

#1 Enworld Jerk™
Like, is this the point? Someone complaining cannot be a fan? I have some sports team fandoms to introduce you to, where complaining about the team IS the way fandom is expressed.
Being a Chicago sports fan 100% of the conversations I have with people about our shared interest is our shared misery. It's what bonds us. If the Bears were good, I don't think the city would know what to do.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Is this argument intended to claim by inference that people complaining about 5e don't care for it and are just slinging criticisms maliciously?

Like, is this the point? Someone complaining cannot be a fan? I have some sports team fandoms to introduce you to, where complaining about the team IS the way fandom is expressed.
Oh so you live in Chicago, then?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
True. Is there evidence that WotC intended BIFTs and Inspiration to be easily ignorable?

Are we defining quality as, "meeting the stated goals"? If not, their stated intent isn't particularly relevant.

Well, they spend considerable space on BIFTs, both describing them and in providing rollable table examples for each background. They devoted space in both the PHB and the DMG to Inspiration, and not as optional rules. They also included optional rules for the mechanics.

I think "easily ignorable" from the standpoint of design is counterindicated by the resource space devoted to the system.

Dude, they produce entre books that are optional and easily ignorable. Amount of space used is not an indicator. And, honestly, if you weren't intended to be able to ignore them, they'd impact rules systems more than an occasional advantage on a roll.

I submit that BIFTs, in their structure, appear to be largely present for folks new to role playing. Since those folks are pretty much the future of the game, it is sensible to give them some space. But for veterans, BIFTs are not terribly necessary, and easily ignored - see previous note that their mechanical impact is minimal.

Conjecture is easy, and not terribly persuasive.

I am not trying to persuade you.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Being a Chicago sports fan 100% of the conversations I have with people about our shared interest is our shared misery. It's what bonds us. If the Bears were good, I don't think the city would know what to do.
Well, you know why they call it the windy city. ;)
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Not all subjective judgements are about personal preference though. I enjoy John Wick and Point Break a good deal more than I enjoy (although I still enjoy it) Dennis Villanueva's films, but when it comes to the cinematography, acting and writing Dune is a much greater creative accomplishment from my perspective.

There are several roleplaying games I do not personally enjoy but would consider extremely well designed. FATE, GUMSHOE and Seventh Sea 2nd Edition are among those. There are others like Exalted Third Edition, Silent Legions, Worlds Without Number and Vampire - The Requiem that I consider flawed designs that I enjoy much more.

Just because something is subjective does not mean there is no firm grounding. It's just means there's a level of personal judgement that needs to be made even when our criterion is the same.
 
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payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Not all subjective judgements are about personal preference though. I enjoy John Wick and Point Break a good deal more than I enjoy (although I still enjoy it) Dennis Villanueva's films, but when it comes to the cinematography, acting and writing Dune is a much greater creative accomplishment.

There are several roleplaying games I do not personally enjoy but would consider extremely well designed. FATE, GUMSHOE and Seventh Sea 2nd Edition are among those. There are others like Exalted Third Edition, Silent Legions, Worlds Without Number and Vampire - The Requiem that I consider flawed designs that I enjoy much more.

Just because something is subjective does not mean there is no firm grounding. It's just means there's a level of personal judgement that needs to be made even when our criterion is the same.
The trick is in recognizing your opinion vs actual quality. Something you do here in your posting. (y)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Are we defining quality as, "meeting the stated goals"? If not, their stated intent isn't particularly relevant.
Weird non sequitur. @hawkeyefan was speaking to the fact that the Inspiration system was bad design in part because it's so easily ignorable. You chose to, without any support, ask if it might have been intended design. I addressed that statement. Where is quality and how quality defined part of this chain?

You directly suggested that the design intent was to be easily ignorable. I think it's exceptionally relevant.
Dude, they produce entre books that are optional and easily ignorable. Amount of space used is not an indicator. And, honestly, if you weren't intended to be able to ignore them, they'd impact rules systems more than an occasional advantage on a roll.
Ok. So, their intent in producing this books is that it is ignorable? This is a design goal?

You're confusing what users may choose to do on their own volition for the intent of design. I'm 100% certain that WotC doesn't want you to ignore their rules -- they have a monetary interest in you 1) finding them interesting enough to buy them and 2) finding them useful enough to recommend and encourage more sales. Are you arguing that WotC is in the business of making books that they intend you to ignore?
I submit that BIFTs, in their structure, appear to be largely present for folks new to role playing. Since those folks are pretty much the future of the game, it is sensible to give them some space. But for veterans, BIFTs are not terribly necessary, and easily ignored - see previous note that their mechanical impact is minimal.
Your argument is that the PHB for 5e intentionally includes beginner rules at significant page space and doesn't call them out as such? That they predicated the DMG social encounter rules on these same concepts and that's beginner text as well? That you're supposed to abandon inspiration as you "get gud" and playing D&D? And that all of this is supposed to be obvious to veteran players, at least?

I find this chain of inference to be very weak. It requires some pretty strong assumptions, especially when we can see that they actually do produce beginner on-ramping products that introduce rules in a stepped fashion. Further, as a veteran player, I'd absolutely LOVE for BIFTs to matter outside of the Inspiration mechanic, or just for NPCs within the social encounter mechanics.
I am not trying to persuade you.
Sure, but you seem to be trying to persuade someone, yes? Otherwise, why post. Can I then be assumed to also be trying to persuade this other person(s), as I find that your attempt is rather weak and want to provide a counterargument for their consideration.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The trick is in recognizing your opinion vs actual quality. Something you do here in your posting. (y)
What is actual quality and where can I find it listed?

EDIT: sorry, rhetorical question, I have an answer. Quality is usually a comparative assessment between items in the same product/service space. So, quality for RPGs would be in measuring how well they perform in comparison to similar products. This is fraught because many RPGs actually aim in different directions. So, then, we tend to use broader categories, like completeness of the system, ease of use in play, evocativeness of the prose, editing and layout, art, physical qualities (binding, paper weight, etc), etc. These are still comparative with other RPGs, though. What gets smuggled in is "fun". This isn't really a measure of quality, but enjoyment. Plenty of low quality things are fun.
 
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