D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[jgsugden]

Dr Strange had to take one a special title which enforces a responsibility.

And?

He's bonded to a being that casts most of the more powerful spells. Without the helmet, Dr Fate can't do many types of spells.

And?

Most of the powerful spells. Barring the magics taught in most schools, they don't have much of a range unless of special birth, circumstances, or personality.

So, except for the spells the wizards learn, they can't do spells. Wizards in fantasy have many origins. However, that is not relevant to the original point I introduced, which is not about where the powers come from but instead how they are depicted.

We see these wizards doing dynamic and exciting things in the fiction - not just standing back and waiting for other wizards to do something, letting it complete and then doing their response. We see them interact with their magic building upon what their enemy does in order to avoid negative impacts and often to twist the magic around back on their foe.

 

[Minigiant]

And?And?So, except for the spells the wizards learn, they can't do spells. Wizards in fantasy have many origins. However, that is not relevant to the original point I introduced, which is not about where the powers come from but instead how they are depicted.

We see these wizards doing dynamic and exciting things in the fiction - not just standing back and waiting for other wizards to do something, letting it complete and then doing their response. We see them interact with their magic building upon what their enemy does in order to avoid negative impacts and often to twist the magic around back on their foe.

My point was that wizards who weren't outright demigods, monsters, or epic archmages would have types of magic they couldn't do.

This forced them to either rely on nonmagical skills and knowledge or defer to allies to overcome so obstacles. Nor because they didn't prepare them but because they could not do that type of magic.

Often the adventure was to find the one thing or person who could perform that type of magic. What D&D did was magic the unique into the mundane as wizards who learn anything. There was no notorious necromancer who could raise the dead or famous wizard who could speed up time. Either of these wizards could learn the others spell.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

What's wrong with the Wizard is honestly extremely simple.

Dungeons & Dragons is a game by nerds, for nerds. Because of this, and through subconscious bias, conscious bias, and/or wanting to appeal more to the demographic that are going for, the developers of the game ended up making the nerdiest class in the game the strongest. What's the nerdiest class in the game? It's the one puts the most stock into intelligence, both the ability score, and the attribute of the player.

Everything else flows from that.

NOTE: I am not saying anything bad about that, I am simply stating the facts as I see them.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Suggesting that allowing PCs to be a generalist is bad is wrong. I will add this is not unique to the Wizard, you can be a generalist fighter, good at both melee and ranged pretty easily and you can have a fighter that has both a high strength and high dex easily as well.

Okay, but being a generalist in fighting means way WAY less than it does for being a generalist in magic and typically comes at way more of a cost.

Generalist fighter
Cons: needs to be raising 2 stats, feats required to keep up on DPR are often meant to enhance specialisation so wont benefit your build across the board, already possible to attack at both melee and range with finesse and thrown weapons, usually doesn't matter what kind of nonmagic B/S/P damage you're using on most enemies, versatility doesn't naturally reach outside combat pillar without feats.
Pros: increases the ways to deal damage at both melee and ranged distances.

Generalist wizard
Cons: needs to find more spells in the world to expand your versatility beyond what you already get to pick as default.
Pros: only dependant on one stat, doesn't require feats to keep up DPR, offers both melee and ranged options, magic damage is standard for most spells, large array of weakness targeting energy damage types, ways to control the battlefield beyond inflicting pure damage such as de/buffs, hazards and effects, can heavily influence the game in various ways outside of the combat pillar,

 

[jgsugden]

My point was that wizards who weren't outright demigods, monsters, or epic archmages would have types of magic they couldn't do.

This forced them to either rely on nonmagical skills and knowledge or defer to allies to overcome so obstacles. Nor because they didn't prepare them but because they could not do that type of magic.

Often the adventure was to find the one thing or person who could perform that type of magic. What D&D did was magic the unique into the mundane as wizards who learn anything. There was no notorious necromancer who could raise the dead or famous wizard who could speed up time. Either of these wizards could learn the others spell.

Again, so? I don't see the relevance of this to the point I was making. It is a nonsequitor to the idea to which you responded.

Let's say a necromancer and a chronurgist were engaged in battle. Each has their focus. Let's say that each is also only limited to their focus. Which of the following is more evocative and interesting?

Necromancer: I use Vampiric Touch ... 19 to hit ... and ... deal 22 damage. I heal 11.
Chronurgist: I cast Slow on him. DC 16 Wisdom.
Necromancer: 18 save. I cast Danse Macabre and have the 5 skeletons attack. 13,16,8,15,18.
Chronurgist: 2 hit.
Necromancer: 7 and 6 damage. Total 13.
Chronurgist: OK. Time Ravage? DC 16 Constitution. 85 necrotic damage if you fail plus a buncg of effects. Half on a successful save.
Necromancer: I'm resistant . Fail the save, still take 42.
Chronurgist. But you die in 30 days, have disadvantage on attack rolls, saves and ability checks - and move half speed. You need a 9th level spell to fix it.

Or:

Necromancer: I use Vampiric Touch ... 19 to hit ... and ... deal 22 damage. I heal 11.
Chronurgist: Wait a second: I cast slow as a reaction. When cast this way, it gives you disadvantage on the attack. As you rech out to hit me, I use the slow magic to give me a chance to dodge!
Necromancer: Doh! 12 ... that missed, right?
Chronurgist: Yup. OK. I'll go for Time Ravage. DC 16 Constitution. 85 necrotic damage if you fail plus a bunch of effects. Half on a successful save.
Necromancer: I use Tether Essence's reaction - make a Constitution Save yourself. DC 17.
Chronurgist: As a reaction I use Temporal Leap and jump forward 1d6 rounds in time, avoiding the Tether Essence.
Necromancer: Nice. I'm resistant. I fail the save, but still take 42.
Chronurgist. But you die in 30 days, have disadvantage on attack rolls, saves and ability checks - and move half speed. You need a 9th level spell to fix it.
Necromancer: OK, but I'm casting Danse Macabre to get ready for when you reappear.

This is not a new idea, but it is an idea that has never been executed well in D&D. Instead, we drop a few reaction defense spells in the game and call it a day. They get kind of boring. I'd rather they dropped shield, absorb elements, silvery barbs, counterspell, and other reaction defense spells in favor of giving each existing spell a reaction use that was defensive or battlefield control related (grease, web, etc...)

 

[FrozenNorth]

This is not a new idea, but it is an idea that has never been executed well in D&D. Instead, we drop a few reaction defense spells in the game and call it a day. They get kind of boring. I'd rather they dropped shield, absorb elements, silvery barbs, counterspell, and other reaction defense spells in favor of giving each existing spell a reaction use that was defensive or battlefield control related (grease, web, etc...)

I’ll hand it to you. It takes guts to argue that wizards need more options in a thread about how they’re overpowered.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

No not like a 5e fighter can. Like I mention the world record to fire 10 arrows is 40 seconds. That is 4 seconds per arrow for a short span and it is "ramped up".

A 5th level fighter can beat that by quite a bit firing arrows all day long at 3 seconds per arrow and can ramp that up to 1.5 seconds per arrow for a short 6-second burst. A 20th level fighter can destroy that firing 24 arrows in 18 seconds before "slowing down" to 1.5 arrows a second until he runs out.

That is with a bow, use a crossbow and it is even a bigger disparity. A heavy crossbow takes about 70 seconds to fire with the crossbow braced on the ground and being cranked most of that time. A basic 1st level fighter can fire off a bolt every 6 seconds, while also walking 30 feet .... if you use your 6th level extra feat (which no other class gets) for crossbow expert you can match the times above for a bow. That is unreal.




They are not athletes, they are "fighters". That said using the default rules a fighter with a 20 strength can long jump 20 feet, high jump 9 feet and run faster than a 9-minute mile while carrying 300lbs of gear. I do not think there is anyone alive that can do that.0

So can a wizard! That's the core D&D rules for athletics checks. Not the class. They don't even get expertise in athletics!

A fighter with a 6 strength can run a 9-minute mile while carrying 90lbs of gear. People that can do that are few and far between.

So can a wizard! That's the basic rules for stats and movement, which last I checked, everyone gets!

More to the point though I think we need to keep this focused on weapons and fighting. a 1st level fighter will generally survive being stabbed by a dagger 3 times. A 10th level fighter can be stabbed by a dagger an astounding 20 times and be expected to survive. That is with a 10 constitution, give him a 16 and he can up that to 30. That is with an actual dagger, not a kitchen knife! He will take 20 arrows and usually still be walking around.

So can a wizard! That's D&D HP, nothing special about the class. Which is the pathetic truth. There's nothing special about the fighter.

They are like Hercules.

Lol. Simply no. Call me when they can divert a river, or throw a giant over a house. Lasso a tornado. Boil water with their rage or scare a platoon to death. Wizards are mythic. Fighters are mall cops with bigger numbers.

Moreover it is easier to build a fighter that is good with all weapons than it is any other class. You can very eaily build a fighter that transitions from a Greatsword to a Longbow to a pair of Shortswords and does all of them very well. You can't do that with other classes as easily and I would argue that is the fighters schtick.

Ooooh, so sexy. They get proficiency with martial weapons. So do valor bards, who get 9 levels of spells and good class abilities.

Given your stated pro wizard bias that they should be the best class and everyone else should just bask in their glory as loser sidekicks, I'm not wasting much time engaging with you.

 

[bloodtide]

Poor players who feel Wizards should be gods.

This is typical, but not really a "problem" with the wizard. Not just popular culture pushes this idea, but so does D&D lore and fluff.

Stealing the spotlight from other PCs/players.

I'm not sure this is a "wizard problem". This firstly is more of a game play problem, and it's really on too many DMs. Too many DMs make a game world with a big spotlight for the wizard to walk into, and then they just sit back and say "things just happen". But stealing the spotlight is a more common game problem.

Being able to overcome just about all challenges.

THIS one is really all on the DMs. Much like setting up the Spotlight. The first part is the DM sets up challenges that our impossible to do in any mundane way. The second part is the DM sets up the challenges so that the wizard can overcome them.

This one really goes over the top when DMs give wizards a free pass. Even with tons of ways to limit and counter magic a DM will refuse to do so and LET the wizard do as they wish all the time.

Too large of a spell list.

I think of this a perk. I don't see a downside of too many spells.

Too many spells in the spellbook.

I think of this a perk. I don't see a downside of too many spells.

Cantrips are an issue.

Well...yes, I'm not happy with the 5E or even Pathfinder "pew pew" cantrips. I do like more ultiliy spells at will.

Spells are too powerful.

Well, maybe not exactly. The problem is more many spells are poorly writen. Many spells could use some simple leagleese limitations.

The class is boring. (@Zardnaar)

I can see this from the player side: they just "cast spells". 5E really watered down the wizards too much. The big strength of the wizard was to use any spell from a large spellbook, but you don't get that in 5E. Wizards could use a LOT more unique spells too.

Player Expectations. (@James Gasik)

I lot of players think more "warlock" or "sorcerer" when they think "spellcaster".

Hardly anyone plays Wizards anymore. (@Ruin Explorer)

True enough, in most 5E games I've seen there are hardly any wizards.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ah yes.

the true problem with Wizards is that they aren't special unique powerhouses enough. If we just got rid of all those other classes stealing dregs of their thunder, there wouldn't be an issue.

 

[ECMO3]

A wizard can only cast 4 a day. A Wizard can have all of them in their spell book.

No they can't. This is untrue. They only get 4 spells in their book of each level 2nd-8th as part of their class.

For 3rd level for example, they get two new spells in their book at 5th level and two more 6th level. They can't have more than four as part of their class unless they take fewer spells of 4th-9th level and it is a one for one trade. IF they take fifth 3rd level spell when the wizard makes 7th level and only can only add one 4th level spell instead of two and will end up with three total 4th level spells instead of four.

To get more than that 4 spells the DM must give them to the wizard in terms of scrolls, time and gold. The DM needs to afford the wizard all three of these things if they want to add any more spells to their book.

So if your Wizards are all God wizards with a spell for every situation then that is because you, the DM, gave that power to them.

The Cleric won't have high damage evocations unless his domain grants them.

First the cleric has some fairly good damaging spells, but thatis not the point.

The point is the cleric has evocations, he has damaging spells, he has diviniations and he can have all that acccessing every Cleric spell at e very single level (in addition to off class spells).

The Wizard does not get that. The 5th level Wizard that chooses Lightning Bolt and Fireball has the best 3rd level damaging invocations in the game, but that is ALL he has of 3rd level and those are the only spells he can cast of 3rd level. Until he makes 6th level he will never be able to cast any other 3rd level spell. If he stays on theme and picks two more invocations at 6th level - say Minute meteors and pulse wave. Now he has 4 invocations and if he has solts for them he can cast them, but fir the entire rest of his adventuring career he will never cast another 3rd level spell unless he gives up a higher level spell for it. No Abjurations, no divinitions, no conjurations ... until 20th level!

And by taking a domain that grants them, he loses the ability to ever get strong summon options or illusion options.

Spirit Guardians is the most powerful Conjuration spell of 3rd level and it is available to all Clerics.

The wizard has access to all of them in their list.

But only 4 in their book as part of their class.

The only things a wizard can't do is heal and resurrect. Sure the wizard only has 2 guranteed picks per level but they are the only class that can collect spells.

Or cast spells not in their book, which is the vast majority of them.

They can collect spells, but they don't get those spells as part of their class. It is not a class feature, they are magic items.

If you have a problem with Wizards at your table having too many spells it is because you are handing out too much for them. This is not coming from their class.

That tells you something. Can is the cleric and druid allowed to switch accross their whole spell list daily. But the wizard only get 2 pcks a level and only swap what he/she/they find? Because the cleric and druid spell list has massive holes. The wizard spell list has only 2 small holes so the designers have to artificially hope the DM creates extra holes by not leaving too many spells as treasure.

It is not just the spells, as a matter of fact it is not even primarily the spells. It is primarily the time. There are virtually no published WOTC adventures that are going to afford the Wizard the time to prepare dozens of extra spells and there are none that afford the time, magic items and gold.

So if this is happening in your campaign it is by design.

I will add that people complain about the Wizard, but not the sorcerer and the sorcerer has most of the spells available to the Wizard, and with subclasses, just about all the good ones past 1st level.