Redwizard007
Adventurer
edit: effectively a double post
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In addition to a half dozen Battlemaster maneuvers (that are also available via a feat,) there areYeah but you're probably not doing it at level 1, barring a Variant Human with Sentinel (if Feats are allowed). Tunnel Fighter fighting style is UA content (and only really shores up OA focused builds like Sentinel and Battlemaster), Protection and Interception uses your reaction, so it's once per turn and you can't make opportunity attacks, and Superior Technique gives you one crummy Superiority Die.
Nothing is baseline, and most of these options are Fighter-only. Then add to that the fact that, like I said, not every martial wants to be a protector, and will probably build for "the damage", and very little really protects the casters at all, often forcing them to protect themselves.
Also not fixable in D&D.The original 3 classes have the same problem: they're too broad. Fighter (fighting man) is "weapon guy;" cleric (priest) is "god guy;" wizard (magic user) is "magic guy." All the other classes started off as specialties (the original subclasses) of those.
As the game evolved, those specialties spun off.into their own classes, but the original classes stuck around and never gave up any part of their identity. So you got the druid as "nature priest," but the cleric was still the "everything priest." Ranger was the "nature fighter," but fighter was still the "everything fighter."
Wizard's thing is "doing magic," and magic can do anything. So the wizard is a big amorphous blob of "do anything."
Nets are expensive, Stunning Strike is a level 5 ability. Most of those are higher than level 1, which was my point; it's very hard to be able to effectively defend spellcasters at low levels and you have to build towards wanting to do that, it's not something handed to you.In addition to a half dozen Battlemaster maneuvers (that are also available via a feat,) there are
Nets
Grappling
Shoving
Stunning Strike
Open Hand Technique
Master of Tactics
Unwavering Mark
Ancestral Protectors
That's off the top of my head. There are options if someone wants to make a defend-your-friends type of build. The top 3 don't even require any relevant resources. If one adds feats, this really becomes a non-issue all together.
Not it doesn't. It turns combat into lemming boxing where everyone on both sides just puts "well I guess I'll attack again" on loopThis was a sacrifice of sticky game mechanics, but it allows a more cinematic and action filled turn. It also fits the (relatively) rules-light concepts of 5e quite well. There are still sticky features scattered throughout the sub-classes, fighting styles, and feats that can create a functional tank.
Worse 5e was designed for the gm to throw gobs & gobs of monsters at the group, tracking which monster among 5 10 or more* useless mooks is a nontrivial overhead for results that still don't really matter.Nets are expensive, Stunning Strike is a level 5 ability. Most of those are higher than level 1, which was my point; it's very hard to be able to effectively defend spellcasters at low levels and you have to build towards wanting to do that, it's not something handed to you.
Except for maybe grappling and shoving, but that takes your attack action, which means you aren't actually killing the monsters.
EDIT: I take it back, nets are cheap, I haven't used one since they cost 20 gp and required Exotic Weapon Proficiency, lol.
EDIT 2: though they still have the same problem as grappling.
The game doesn’t end at level 8, that's just the breakeven point where the problem accelerates. It continues on for another several levels where a pc who once made big gains in low level spell slots & prepped low level spells that have been scaling by caster level & are now are just expanding well beyond the tiny number of high level slots they have.
My dude, at low levels AoO are all the "sticky" you need. A 7hp goblin can't risk a single hit.Nets are expensive, Stunning Strike is a level 5 ability. Most of those are higher than level 1, which was my point; it's very hard to be able to effectively defend spellcasters at low levels and you have to build towards wanting to do that, it's not something handed to you.
Except for maybe grappling and shoving, but that takes your attack action, which means you aren't actually killing the monsters.
EDIT: I take it back, nets are cheap, I haven't used one since they cost 20 gp and required Exotic Weapon Proficiency, lol.
EDIT 2: though they still have the same problem as grappling.
an creature can dash in circles around an opponent without triggering an AoO. Even if it does trigger a single AoO 5e monsters are tuned with low AC & tons of HP to ensure that it doesn't really matterMy dude, at low levels AoO are all the "sticky" you need. A 7hp goblin can't risk a single hit.
But an Orc can with 15 hit points. A CR 1/2 Thug has 32 hit points! A Drow Elf, with the same CR as the goblin has 13 hit points and can drop Darkness on your melee.My dude, at low levels AoO are all the "sticky" you need. A 7hp goblin can't risk a single hit.
Tons of HP? Goblins have 7. Bandits and cultists get 9. A black bear 19. The cockatrice has 27. Mephits 17. Giant spiders 11. Gnolls 22. There is no way an intelligent creature with single digit HP will willingly tank an AoO, and all of these should be fleeing combat after 2 to 3 hits at most. The only way this looks like tons of HP is if you have a party of bards facing off against gnolls.an creature can dash in circles around an opponent without triggering an AoO. Even if it does trigger a single AoO 5e monsters are tuned with low AC & tons of HP to ensure that it doesn't really matter
The thug is just insane, and I had forgotten them. I'll grant you that one.But an Orc can with 15 hit points. A CR 1/2 Thug has 32 hit points! A Drow Elf, with the same CR as the goblin has 13 hit points and can drop Darkness on your melee.
Correct me if I skipped one, those are all CR1/2 or less creatures yes? Most of those are already able to take more than one hit & you really haven't even gotten beyond monsters for low level parties. LMOP runs to like level 4 or 5, are you considering that an end game full on campaign or something?Tons of HP? Goblins have 7. Bandits and cultists get 9. A black bear 19. The cockatrice has 27. Mephits 17. Giant spiders 11. Gnolls 22. There is no way an intelligent creature with single digit HP will willingly tank an AoO, and all of these should be fleeing combat after 2 to 3 hits at most. The only way this looks like tons of HP is if you have a party of bards facing off against gnolls.
You know, I love that archetype of the one-man-army fighter, but you don't really see them in situations that also include a fantasy wizard in situations where the wizard isn't clearly being narratively restrained. That kind of fighter really needs to shine alone.i pick the fighter for the class fantasy of it.
the fantasy of being a fighter is not that of being second banana to the wizard, it is one of being a muscled one-man-army tornado of steel and death who can endure the hammering blow of a titan and brush off the inferno breath of a red dragon with hp to spare.
i don't want to be told when my fighter doesn't match up to the wizard's capabilities in different but equal ways that 'well you made the choice to be lesser', no i didn't, that just came as an unwanted attatched strings to the thing i actually wanted.
That was a response to thisCorrect me if I skipped one, those are all CR1/2 or less creatures yes? Most of those are already able to take more than one hit & you really haven't even gotten beyond monsters for low level parties. LMOP runs to like level 4 or 5, are you considering that an end game full on campaign or something?
He was concerned about tanking at low levels, so I went fishing for low level monsters. Regardless of level, 5e monsters tend to go down fast.Most of those are higher than level 1, which was my point; it's very hard to be able to effectively defend spellcasters at low levels..
I think part of the issue is that both fighter and wizard are performing the same task in the same scenario of defeating enemies, just that the fighter stabs and the wizard fireballs, they need parallel tasks to properly shine, where the fighter is holding the literal endless hoards of undead at bay while the wizard is behind them figuring out some arcane lock or barrier or casting the minute long emergency teleport to get them all out of there.You know, I love that archetype of the one-man-army fighter, but you don't really see them in situations that also include a fantasy wizard in situations where the wizard isn't clearly being narratively restrained. That kind of fighter really needs to shine alone.
Absolutely. But you can't arrange that short of narrative controls, what with free will and all.I think part of the issue is that both fighter and wizard are performing the same task in the same scenario of defeating enemies, just that the fighter stabs and the wizard fireballs, they need parallel tasks to properly shine, where the fighter is holding the literal endless hoards of undead at bay while the wizard is behind them figuring out some arcane lock or barrier or casting the minute long emergency teleport to get them all out of there.
Where they’re both performing equally important but completely different kinds of tasks.