D&D 5E What is REALLY wrong with the Wizard? (+)

[CleverNickName]

The only "problems with the wizard" that you've described and that I've actually seen at the table are too large of a spell list and cantrips are an issue. Agree 100%.

Of course, neither of these problems are unique to the Wizard class, though. They're just as problematic in the other spellcasters, IMO. And moreso with the Warlock.

 

[tetrasodium]

Absolutely. But you can't arrange that short of narrative controls, what with free will and all.

Also thanks to unlimited cantrip casting there's no longer casters leaning on martials & plinking optimistically with a sling/xbow/crappy low level wand with N charges in fights that don't require a lot of control/blasting/etc

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

You know, I love that archetype of the one-man-army fighter, but you don't really see them in situations that also include a fantasy wizard in situations where the wizard isn't  clearly being narratively restrained. That kind of fighter really needs to shine alone.

What are some non-D&D examples of D&D like high level wizards? extreme versaility, power, with little cost? If they are restrained for the entire 'campaign' (maybe Gandalf?) then the class would be restrained angel or whatever and not angel/D&D wizard.

I always have a hard time thinking of examples outside supers which I think is part of the issue.

Hulk/Thor like mythic martials stand alongside Dr. Strange ok.

But most fantasy "teams" seem to have slightly less mythic martials with very powerful but severly contrained spellcasters.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What are some non-D&D examples of D&D like high level wizards? extreme versaility, power, with little cost? If they are restrained for the entire 'campaign' (maybe Gandalf?) then the class would be restrained angel or whatever and not angel/D&D wizard.

I always have a hard time thinking of examples outside supers which I think is part of the issue.

Hulk/Thor like mythic martials stand alongside Dr. Strange ok.

But most fantasy "teams" seem to have slightly less mythic martials with very powerful but severly contrained spellcasters.

True, D&D wizards just aren't that prevalent in other media; the closest is probably Doctor Strange. But they are a thing in D&D and need to be dealt with on that basis.

 

[James Gasik]

What are some non-D&D examples of D&D like high level wizards? extreme versaility, power, with little cost? If they are restrained for the entire 'campaign' (maybe Gandalf?) then the class would be restrained angel or whatever and not angel/D&D wizard.

I always have a hard time thinking of examples outside supers which I think is part of the issue.

Hulk/Thor like mythic martials stand alongside Dr. Strange ok.

But most fantasy "teams" seem to have slightly less mythic martials with very powerful but severly contrained spellcasters.

Most fantasy Wizards can do anything unless they can't, lol.

Even if they claim to not be able to do something because of "da rulz", you can be sure someone in the story will do something "impossible" to flex their power and style on lesser casters.

Examples include: spellcasters from David Eddings books like Belgarath, spellcasters from The Wheel of Time (we're told there's stuff men can do that women can't, but it's a bit shaky; the main problem with using magic is men go crazy), spellcasters from The Sword of Truth (technically, some Wizards can only "add" or "subtract" things with magic, but there's a lot of clever workarounds, and there are characters who can do both), and, of course, Wizards from the Harry Potter 'verse, who can learn any number of spells, even make their own spells, and can fire off spell after spell without seeming to get tired (with masters being able to use spells without incantations or even wands!).

There are exceptions, like Skeeve from Myth Adventures, who has a limited repertoire of spells, but has a lot of practice at using them, and occasionally runs low on "magic juice" to power them. OTOH, the only thing really stopping him from learning new spells is time (which his life gives him precious short amounts of).

I'd mention Rincewind from Discworld, who is a really terrible "Wizzard", but he has other things going on for him.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Most fantasy Wizards can do anything unless they can't, lol.

Even if they claim to not be able to do something because of "da rulz", you can be sure someone in the story will do something "impossible" to flex their power and style on lesser casters.

Examples include: spellcasters from David Eddings books like Belgarath, spellcasters from The Wheel of Time (we're told there's stuff men can do that women can't, but it's a bit shaky; the main problem with using magic is men go crazy), spellcasters from The Sword of Truth (technically, some Wizards can only "add" or "subtract" things with magic, but there's a lot of clever workarounds, and there are characters who can do both), and, of course, Wizards from the Harry Potter 'verse, who can learn any number of spells, even make their own spells, and can fire off spell after spell without seeming to get tired (with masters being able to use spells without incantations or even wands!).

There are exceptions, like Skeeve from Myth Adventures, who has a limited repertoire of spells, but has a lot of practice at using them, and occasionally runs low on "magic juice" to power them. OTOH, the only thing really stopping him from learning new spells is time (which his life gives him precious short amounts of).

I'd mention Rincewind from Discworld, who is a really terrible "Wizzard", but he has other things going on for him.

Most of those stories also show magic-users as clearly superior to non magic-users.

 

[James Gasik]

Most of those stories also show magic-users as clearly superior to non magic-users.

Oh sorry, was that something we needed an example of? I thought I was looking for examples of powerful Wizards akin to D&D Wizards.

If you need an example of powerful Wizards who can be beat by swords, Chronicles of Amber; sure, a Sorcerer like Merlin can prepare tons of powerful spells, but it takes a lot of time, and he's still terrified of someone like his Uncle Benedict, who has mastered every form of combat and could carve him like a turkey before he could get a single spell off.

 

[FrogReaver]

Wizards get more good stuff every level. Fighters don’t. Slots, spells known, spells prepared every level and higher level spells every other level and increasing saves even on their lowest level spells vs extra attack every 5ish levels and then 9 more till the 4th.

Fighters IMO can start off in a better place - more durable, much higher damage output if you pick a race that grants a feat and take a damage feat at level 1. But that headstart eventually fades to wizards incremental power increases. A good DM can make them equals longer with judicious handing out of magic items, but even then the wizard will almost absolutely pull ahead eventually. That said most Wizards don’t abuse the really broken stuff - either by lack of knowledge or self restraint - so chances are good that most players in actual games won’t find wizards that much powerful than fighters.

If I were to reign in wizards it would be by rewriting their most broken spells and then find a way that lower level control spells didn’t scale their saving throws as well. Possibly a rule that replaced proficiency bonus scaling with, you gain the spells level or slot if upcast to your save dc up to your proficiency bonus.

 

[FrogReaver]

I also think a rule variant for a campaign that features mostly shorter adventuring days where spell slots get lowered. Maybe half rounded up. That also could be a decent lever.

In longer adventuring days I think we are fine with slots as they are.

 

[FrogReaver]

i also think fighters and possibly other martials should get legendary resistance maybe Con mod times per day or orof bonus times per day. Starting maybe around level 10ish?

 

[Micah Sweet]

i also think fighters and possibly other martials should get legendary resistance maybe Con mod times per day or orof bonus times per day. Starting maybe around level 10ish?

I like that idea. I would definitely make it fighters only though. Barbs are plenty tough enough.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

i also think fighters and possibly other martials should get legendary resistance maybe Con mod times per day or orof bonus times per day. Starting maybe around level 10ish?

that's a ridiculous number, honestly - you can end up with as many (if using con and not a barbarian) or more (if using prof or con as a barbarian) legendary resistances as tiamat (EDIT: and you can [or just flat out would if using prof] start with more then most other legendary monsters!). i'd say just have it replace the reroll save effect from indomitable (which means you end up with a max of 3 uses at level 17, and start with 1 at level 9).

 

[FrogReaver]

that's a ridiculous number, honestly - you can end up with as many (if using con and not a barbarian) or more (if using prof or con as a barbarian) legendary resistances as tiamat (EDIT: and you can [or just flat out would if using prof] start with more then most other legendary monsters!). i'd say just have it replace the reroll save effect from indomitable (which means you end up with a max of 3 uses at level 17, and start with 1 at level 9).

1. Tiamat is only meant for a single encounter not a whole adventuring day.

2. I also don’t think you understand just how far ahead wizards and casters in general are by level 17.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

1. Tiamat is only meant for a single encounter not a whole adventuring day.

2. I also don’t think you understand just how far ahead wizards and casters in general are by level 17

I can run tiamat against most of my parties by level 12, and some as low at 7. Especially with melee focused high hp spellcasters

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Most fantasy Wizards can do anything unless they can't, lol.

Even if they claim to not be able to do something because of "da rulz", you can be sure someone in the story will do something "impossible" to flex their power and style on lesser casters.

True, I will give you this. Many magic systems are not consistent or simple left vague so that someone can break the rules, or "dig deep", or whatever to do whatever is plot needed.

But they still don't seem super D&D wizard like. They may be as or more powerful than D&D wizards at times but they don't seem to be as reliable or prolific in spell slinging which is also IMO what makes the D&D wizard unique (and mostly not in a good way).

It is rarely -- meet some obstacle, throw spells at it, repeat. There is almost always some limitation that requires non spell solutions to some problems (traveling, fighting, social, sneaking, etc). And yes, it is often not well thought out and comes down to narrative coupon but it is there.

I'm not familar with all your examples but in the Belgariad wasn't there fatigue or something that prevented wizards from using the will and word at the same rate as a D&D Wiz?

And it's true Harry Potter wizards seem to be able to do spells at will. That said, the stuff even the teachers can do seems a bit limited -- mostly the same 5-6 spells. With other magic coming from potions and items. Although those don't seem to be super hard to come by either. You can't just teleport anywhere but need to go through the fireplace, you don't see everyone going invisible -- just the special plot cloak, etc

I still say its this combination of power, breadth, reliability, abundance, and no cost that makes the D&D wizard what it is and not like many fictional magic users. As pointed out in other threads, even most D&D fiction doesn't really allow for a full spell load out and use.

So where I land is either the high level Wizard should be reined in and would advocate on breadth first, or just accept that this Dr. Strange style Wizard is a critcal part of D&D at higher levels and create a mythic martial to go along with it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You can't just teleport anywhere but need to go through the fireplace,

I agree in theory but (I think they call it asperating) teleporting is like a high school class... it's an owl thing and several character do it... but it must have limits but other then the school being warded against it we don't know what those limits are.

If I were a wizard I would night crawleer around my house... poof I'm in the kitchen, now poof to bed.... but we never see anthing like that so there MUST be a limit we don't know.

 

[FrogReaver]

I still say its this combination of power, breadth, reliability, abundance, and no cost that makes the D&D wizard what it is and not like many fictional magic users. As pointed out in other threads, even most D&D fiction doesn't really allow for a full spell load out and use.

yep. It’s really the combination. Give wizards 3 spells to prepare and 6 to know and they are greatly diminished. Drastically lower their number of slots - say to 1 per spell level and it’s the same. Greatly Tone down the scope of what spells can accomplish. Or perhaps hust lessen each front a moderate amount and you might get close. Though likely some OP spells need reworked. Simulacrum and forcecage are notables.

 

[tetrasodium]

that's a ridiculous number, honestly - you can end up with as many (if using con and not a barbarian) or more (if using prof or con as a barbarian) legendary resistances as tiamat (EDIT: and you can [or just flat out would if using prof] start with more then most other legendary monsters!). i'd say just have it replace the reroll save effect from indomitable (which means you end up with a max of 3 uses at level 17, and start with 1 at level 9).

almost any number of them would be a ridiculous number as long as the current rest & recovery mechanics alongside PCs with reserves expected to last 6-8 medium to hard encounters remains. Bob: "oop, I used my resist thing, we need to take a long/short rest">GM:"it's really not safe here & you know it">entire group:"so what, lets take a rest" is just too easy for players to force

 

[Micah Sweet]

I agree in theory but (I think they call it asperating) teleporting is like a high school class... it's an owl thing and several character do it... but it must have limits but other then the school being warded against it we don't know what those limits are.

If I were a wizard I would night crawleer around my house... poof I'm in the kitchen, now poof to bed.... but we never see anthing like that so there MUST be a limit we don't know.

The twins actually poofed straight from their room to the kitchen the day they passed their magic driving test.

 

[Micah Sweet]

yep. It’s really the combination. Give wizards 3 spells to prepare and 6 to know and they are greatly diminished. Drastically lower their number of slots - say to 1 per spell level and it’s the same. Greatly Tone down the scope of what spells can accomplish. Or perhaps hust lessen each front a moderate amount and you might get close. Though likely some OP spells need reworked. Simulacrum and forcecage are notables.

I can see a LOT of wizard players protesting that. No one I know would play a wizard with those limitations in D&D.