What is the 15-minute adventuring day?

At the core, resource management in 3.X is little different from 1Ed or 2Ed, games I (and others) picked up as pre-teens. It's not THAT difficult.

I disagree with that. 3.x spellcasters, despite using almost the same mechanics, were quite different. There was a bigger difference between lower and higher level spells (in terms of the save DC mechanic), there was a big difference in being able to pick your spells, and the ability to spontaneously convert healing spells made a big difference too (making it confusing to measure resource loss, as some PCs weren't losing anything by the end of the day). But the real difference, I think, was in player power. Although that's not actually a complaint, it does mean there's some difference between the systems. Possibly quite a bit.

Not necessarily "crossing with" fun. I doubt that people would play that way for 20+ years if they weren't having fun.

Even the best games can have some aspects that are considered less fun for some or even many people.

I've played 3e for years, even clerics, despite hating Turn Undead. Not liking an aspect of a system doesn't automatically mean "junk it". It does mean I was on the lookout for new turn undead mechanics though.

It's a mindset- possibly heavily influenced by the legends and genre fiction that players grew up with- that mages don't use magic for everything, all the time. Gandalf fights mages with magic...but engages the Balrog with his sword. Did Merlin use utensils to eat or did he "magic" the food into his mouth. Elric uses powerful magics, but rarely uses magic until he has no choice.

Generally, a LOT- not all- the sources I grew up reading had mages use magic like a tool: when needed, as needed.* If things didn't require magic, none was used.

But if your heroes of sword & spells were "all magic, all the time," I can see how that style of resource management would seem alien and even unfun.

I've read some of those sources. Lord of the Rings, yes. Eleric, no. But I couldn't help notice that Gandalf was only kept in check because of the writing; a player playing a Gandalf PC would likely have used magic more, with the cost of having to engage the forces of Mordor in combat more frequently being an acceptable cost of using that magic. (Unless it isn't, in which case be prepared for lots of pouting.) As for him fighting with a sword, well, he's multi-classed. Not a great option for a PC wizard who isn't.l

I don't think I've ever seen an "all magic all the time" character in any novel or movie. Then again, spellcasters always seem to be nerfed in fiction. They either tap out fast (three weak spells a day), use really powerful spells, but only three times per day, or (if it's DnD fiction) are either not full spellcasters or don't follow the rules, dishing out only three spells and then being tapped out for the rest of the book. (I recently read a non-Chosen-focused book by Ed Greenwood. The wizard hero spent 300-400 pages over the course of only two days, and despite being able to clearly cast 3rd-level spells seemed to have a spell capacity of ... 2 a day. So I think she only cast 3 to 5 spells over the course of the entire book!)

But I would expect a spellcaster to use magic anytime combat comes up. They tend not to be trained particularly well in dagger work, fisticuffs or what have you.

That's still a playstyle preference, though. As I stated above, you CAN play that way in D&D. If your DM likes it, it is all cool. If he doesn't, then it's the 15MWD problem.

Unless the 15MWD issue is fixed by, well, DMing. I don't think I'm clear on my position. IMO, having daily resource management mechanics in a system pushes players toward the 15 minute day, in part because using those resources are more fun than saving them, and because players hate to be low on power due to fear of ambushes and so forth (and in 3.x, your power level is going down over the course of the day if you're a spellcaster). That doesn't mean the problem can't be mitigated somehow (eg time-sensitive plots). I also think 4e mostly fixed the problem by moving much resource management to a per-encounter system.

By trying to institute a systemic remedy by changing the mechanics, you remove flexibility from the game.

For this, were you talking about 3e, or 4e?
 

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As I mentioned earlier (I think on the previous page), getting your head around 3.x resource management is not easy.

At the core, resource management in 3.X is little different from 1Ed or 2Ed, games I (and others) picked up as pre-teens. It's not THAT difficult.

Having played 1e, 20 years of 2e and now a dedicated 3x/PF gamer, I would say resource management is pretty much identical between all three systems. There are a few more fiddly things in 3x, but not exponentially more difficult than previous editions. Unless you played the game differently than I did, the 15 minute a day issue was there since the beginning. We figured it out in 1e and never seen the problem rear its head in any edition, once we figured out how to avoid it.

GP
 

I disagree with that. 3.x spellcasters, despite using almost the same mechanics, were quite different. There was a bigger difference between lower and higher level spells (in terms of the save DC mechanic), there was a big difference in being able to pick your spells, and the ability to spontaneously convert healing spells made a big difference too (making it confusing to measure resource loss, as some PCs weren't losing anything by the end of the day). But the real difference, I think, was in player power. Although that's not actually a complaint, it does mean there's some difference between the systems. Possibly quite a bit.

I stand by my assertion. The fundamental resource management of the Vancian spell system is virtually unchanged from the release of AD&D to the end of 3.5's publication run. The only major change to that would be the Reserve Feats (something I wished 4Ed would have retained and expanded, FWIW).

I've been in a campaign that has been active since about 1986, with the PCs being translated from 1Ed to 2Ed to 3Ed to 3.5.: while certain details have changed over time, the way the caster players assess whether they should or should not cast spells- their economy of spell-casting, if you will- is virtually unchanged.



Not necessarily "crossing with" fun. I doubt that people would play that way for 20+ years if they weren't having fun.
Even the best games can have some aspects that are considered less fun for some or even many people.

Sorry- I was really unclear. What I meant was that this playstyle isn't unfun for everyone, therefore, not "necessarily crossing with fun". The evidence of which is that I (and others) have been playing our spellcasters that way for decades. If we were not having fun, we would change our playstyle. We would go nova more often. Or something. But we don't.





I've read some of those sources. Lord of the Rings, yes. Eleric, no. But I couldn't help notice that Gandalf was only kept in check because of the writing; a player playing a Gandalf PC would likely have used magic more, with the cost of having to engage the forces of Mordor in combat more frequently being an acceptable cost of using that magic. (Unless it isn't, in which case be prepared for lots of pouting.) As for him fighting with a sword, well, he's multi-classed. Not a great option for a PC wizard who isn't.l
Even a MC mage in D&D probably wouldn't start off fighting a Balrog with his sword, though. There is probably something about J.R.R.T.'s Balrog that means throwing spells at it would have been a bad idea. Perhaps he didn't have the right spells prepared... Or perhaps he was husbanding his magic for something else, like ensuring he survived the encounter (as opposed to killing/banishing/ the Balrog).

I don't think I've ever seen an "all magic all the time" character in any novel or movie.

Most of those I've seen are a lot like 3Ed Sorcerers. They have a small repertoire of spells that they use all the time.

But I would expect a spellcaster to use magic anytime combat comes up. They tend not to be trained particularly well in dagger work, fisticuffs or what have you.
Which takes us back to Gandalf & the Balrog. There is no real mention of him using magic to attack it. Not his personal "spells" at least.

Lythande and others from Thieves' World tend not to use magic first.

That's still a playstyle preference, though. As I stated above, you CAN play that way in D&D. If your DM likes it, it is all cool. If he doesn't, then it's the 15MWD problem.
Unless the 15MWD issue is fixed by, well, DMing.

That was my point, along with the assertion that- in D&D, at least- I think it should remain a DM's fix, not a systemic one.

I also think 4e mostly fixed the problem by moving much resource management to a per-encounter system.

Again, see that thread I linked to: many don't agree because they've seen the same 15MWD in 4Ed they saw in 3.X.


By trying to institute a systemic remedy by changing the mechanics, you remove flexibility from the game.
For this, were you talking about 3e, or 4e?

I was thinking of the transition from 3Ed to 4Ed.

There are an infinite amount of numbers between the integers 1 and 2. There is a bigger infinity found between the integers of 1 and 1,000,000 (since it includes integers excluded by the earlier set).

By definition, the latter infinite set is bigger.

While 4Ed has a huge amount of flexibility, it doesn't have the same breadth as 3Ed, since some of the elements that contributed to 3Ed's flexibility were excised by 4Ed in an effort to improve game balance and "remove traps" from PC design (and so forth).
 

TL;DR version: The players, DM, and system all contribute to 15MD individually, but usually their interaction is more important. None of these is a silver bullet, but in general robust systems should depend less on who is playing them, and should encourage the play you want to achieve. When the group is a known quantity, however, houserules and other table agreements do the trick. Finally, I discuss a momentum system I use, and ponder a "desperation" mechanic that would give incentive for characters to carry on while still giving them the feeling of lack of resources.
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I think the 15MD can be attributed to the interplay between players, DM, and system. It is possible to avoid it by changing any of these three, or any of the 3 interactions, but for quite different reasons.

Clearly D&D permits the 15MD at the system level. Without considering the players or DMs, one way to get rid of it is to simply not make it possible. Doing so could muck with the feeling or functionality of the game enough that some might not want to, but that is getting into interactions.

Next, there are the players. If they don't like, or simply never consider, the 15MD they can simply press on when they could rest. For most groups, however, the decision of whether to rest "early" is at least influenced by the system and the narrative. And at some level it has to be, because otherwise the PCs only stop when they're dead or incapacitated. (Some groups find might the "30MD" unpalatable, for instance, but eventually every group will reach the point where a rest seems necessary).

Finally, there is the DM. Regardless of player or system, if the DM wants to make resting impossible that is usually in his or her power. More likely, however, is that the DM wants to make it anywhere from inconvenient to suicidal, which will influence the players.

So, what are the basic interactions between these elements?

DM and Player: IMO, the fundamental interaction in a non-dysfunctional game is agreement that everyone is here for the fun. Besides general human respect, this usually requires some degree of player buy-in to the campaign, and (sometimes tacit) boundaries on what the DM will do. If either the DM or the players dislike the 15MD, that can be prevented here by outright agreement. The DM can also use more indirect means, so that resting is, as mentioned earlier, inconvenient or suicidal. If the narrative has player buy-in, they will respect this when it occurs. In short, for some groups, the system can totally allow the 15MD, yet it will never or rarely show up because of either the DM, the players, or (more likely) their interaction.

Why isn't this the silver bullet? Primarily, because all games are at least a little dysfunctional. I take this as axiomatic, like all people being at least a little dysfunctional. If there is conflict on this point (e.g. a player whose verisimilitude is ruined because he feels he's gimping himself when the rules would let him be powerful) then a compromise works, but might be unsatisfying. Or, sometimes, the compromise doesn't work and games implode. A secondary reason is that a DM might find narrative excuses to avoid the 15MD wearying or simply not right for the setting/story. Note that both examples above can come from the interaction of player/system and DM/system. In any case, a good game needs to cope with a little dysfunction, and sometimes the weight of that dysfunction can't be help supported solely by the DM/player relationship.

DM and system: I think this is usually the least problematic interaction, or so problematic the game doesn't exist. If there is a serious problem here, a different system is probably the best idea. Every system has some level of meta-narrative baked into it, and part of this is how creatures use their resources, different magic systems, how powerful creatures feel, etc. So, choose the right system and the 15MD is not a problem. And if the system is a little wrong, a simple houserule might fix it right up!

Why isn't this the silver bullet? I've yet to meet a DM that believed they had found the perfect system. The best one, perhaps, but not perfect. If everything else about some system is wonderful, but it allows the 15MD, then there will still be conflict here. Furthermore, players have system opinions as well (player/system interaction) and people want to play systems they like (negotiated in a player/DM interaction). Finally, even when houserules are a good option, they are their own point of contention in almost any game. Even when everyone agrees a houserule is necessary, the specific form it takes could be contentious. Finally, even though rule 0 exists, using it sometimes indicates there is a problem (or mismatch) with a system. Wise DMs use it judiciously, in my opinion, and player trust can be a factor.

Player and system: The players act within the rules (usually :devil:), and as a good first approximation most attempt some degree of optimization within that system. And the system better be able to handle that. If a system allows the 15MD, many players sure as heck will want to use it when possible. (DannyAlcatraz wrote earlier that saving resources in combat is tactical, and smart play. Well, so is going nova if there is no penalty. The player/PC distinction might influence which one is favored, but even most characters would probably prefer the latter when possible. This is usually how the real world works: If I can have two tests in a day, or schedule them a week apart, most people will prefer to "nova both tests" if there are not other considerations.) In short, the system is a major influence on character behavior, and the primary way of mediating player impact on the world, at least in combat. As with DM/system interaction, then, we should find a system that encourages the player behavior we want to see.

Why this isn't a silver bullet: For much the same reasons it wasn't for the DM. Systems aren't perfect, there are conflicts with the other people in the group, and house rules can become their own problem.

What is my overall take? In general, I feel the mechanics of the game should support the narrative of the game, and vice versa. Thus, I think a strong game will encourage the players and DM to act in ways consistent with this narrative regardless of who the players and DM actually are. (If this isn't the game they want to play, that is totally acceptable.) In game design, I can only change the system, I can't choose the players or DM. Thus, the strongest option is robust rules that minimize reliance on quality player or DM intervention to work as intended. (I consider this akin to good industrial tolerances in manufacturing, or strong institutions in nations. Yes, anyone can want to drive safely, and some will even be able to achieve it, but if we have strong cultural and legal institutions with regard to driving then almost everyone will.)

At an individual game table, the answer might be different since the group isn't an unknown quantity. Truly robust rules that work for a wide swath of people are much more difficult than small houserules and "gentlemen's agreements", so when the latter work there is no reason to despise them. They also aren't a good replacement for better systems.

I play in a game right now that uses a momentum system, such that a large portion of a character's power comes as they succeed in combat. For example, a character's reserve of spell points is smaller than the amount of momentum (which can be spent as spell points) they will gain over a typical combat for quite a while. In this system, going nova depletes reserves, but it does diminish the 15MD.

However, the 15MD is still superior in this system when you can get it, since more spell points in reserve would always be preferable. I've been thinking about ways to add a new tension to the game. I think the trick is to allow characters to trade off the risk of being low on resources for advances or abilities that otherwise aren't available. Maybe a "desperation" mechanic. Such things crop up in a lot of games, but are usually not very good. For example, in 4e there are various abilities that grant a bonus when bloodied, but I think most are underwhelming unless you're a monster. What if one's ability to use powerful abilities actually increased as the player runs low on resources? It's less safe, but the stakes are raised and some achievements might only be possible when things get desperate. So, characters that use the 15MD can still succeed, but they don't uncover the most powerful reserves of power until they're against the ropes. The risk should be enough that, on balance, one wouldn't recklessly burn resources to get to that point. In short, you're not strictly better, but you are different.

In a 4e setting, I can see something like revamped milestones and accounting of healing surges (rather than hit points) as a measure for determining when these kick in. A player without any healing surges left might be an absolute terror, but they would be taking a pretty big risk. For some parties the 15MD would still be attractive solely for personality reasons, but if they feel a push to go onward because they are better by some metric they value (say more frequent critical hits and the ability to "overdrive" spells) then it would encourage taking a few more risks. In some sense, it is "momentum" at the encounter level, rather than the round level.

Any ideas along these lines, or other comments?
 

There are an infinite amount of numbers between the integers 1 and 2. There is a bigger infinity found between the integers of 1 and 1,000,000 (since it includes integers excluded by the earlier set).

By definition, the latter infinite set is bigger.

OK, I'm a bit off topic, but this isn't true. The cardinality of real numbers in both sets is the same. This is one of the earliest (and most surprising!) results in modern set theory. Namely, the real numbers between 1 and 2 can be put in one-to-one correspondence with those between 1 and 1,000,000, and between those from negative infinity to positive infinity. They are, however, more numerous than the (also infinite) number of natural numbers (1,2,3,...).

Cardinality of the continuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

OK, I'm a bit off topic, but this isn't true. The cardinality of real numbers in both sets is the same. This is one of the earliest (and most surprising!) results in modern set theory. Namely, the real numbers between 1 and 2 can be put in one-to-one correspondence with those between 1 and 1,000,000, and between those from negative infinity to positive infinity. They are, however, more numerous than the (also infinite) number of natural numbers (1,2,3,...).

Cardinality of the continuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I stand corrected- math of that order was never my strong suit!


But as you note, the set of natural numbers is a (still infinite) subset of the set of real numbers...which still supports my point that you can have 2 things that are incredibly- some might say, infinitely- flexible, but one may still be able to say that one is more flexible than the other.
 

Doug McCrae said:
All of these avoid the 15-minute day, I think.
Dannyalcatraz said:
GP cost won't because there isn't a direct link between having $$$ and combat efficacy.
First, that assumes that combat efficiency is the decisive factor. That is both myopic and not really to the point.

Second, there can be -- and certainly is in, e.g., old RuneQuest -- a direct link between training and combat efficiency, and between equipment (weapons, armor, spells) and combat efficiency -- and it takes money to get training and equipment.

What does it take to get money for those? Adventuring. If your 16-year old in old RQ I or II has any edge in survival and success, and is not a noble, then it is probably due to having gone into debt.

If you don't carry on to get the treasure, then you're back to square one with another day down. In my experience, it's much the same in old D&D.

The only way a day off is cost free is if the rest of the world takes a day off, too. If your guys are in combat, how come the enemy lets them dictate the pace and time and place of combat?

SAN loss won't because when you lose it (in most systems), it's not coming back anytime soon. It functions on too slow a timescale: you're not going to go on an adventure, partially finish it, retreat because your PCs are on the verge of going nuts, spend time in therapy to get your SAN back, then go back to the adventure. By that time, the Ineffable Horror has consumed the world.
Uh, that looks to me like a very good explanation of why this does make the "15 minute workday" impractical.



What makes for the strategy is a lack of reasons not to use it.
 
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There are an infinite amount of numbers between the integers 1 and 2. There is a bigger infinity found between the integers of 1 and 1,000,000 (since it includes integers excluded by the earlier set).

By definition, the latter infinite set is bigger.

Actually, no. There is a bijective mapping between the two sets and both work out at the same size of inifinite despite one being a superset of the other - if you increase the gap between each number between 1 and 2 1,000,000 times there's still an infinite number of them to pair up there. (Transfinite mathematics gets weird). The two groups have the same Cardinal Number and that is the only size to the infinite sets in question that has any meaning at all.

This, however, doesn't mean that all infinite sets are the same size.
 

And as a counter, in a short-lived game of Mutants & Masterminds I was in, the entire party got "nerfed" and locked in a mental institution. We escaped and were very slowly getting our powers back. It wasn't a whole lot of fun and that essentially ended the campaign. Players don't like being nerfed.



On this I agree. There's little benefit to a wizard not using their top-level spells every encounter, except for the need to be ready for other encounters.



I was thinking like 50, as only a couple are kind of useless both in and out of combat. Being able to cure 4d8+6 (two Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds) isn't a big deal with an orc can deal that much damage with two swings. At 1st-level.



Don't you see a problem with that? If someone got clocked three times by a barbarian's axe, or zapped by Disintegrate or Harm, or breathed on by a dragon, or hit by sneak attack (surprise round) and then again (first strike), I would think a CLW wand just won't be enough whilst combat is still raging. In this situation, a badly-wounded PC is advised to retreat immediately, which means abandoning their party in combat.



3e made scrolls really weak. A scroll of a defensive spell works pretty well, but a scroll of Fireball is dishing out a save DC of 14 and probably the lowest number of damage dice.

In 3.5 staffs actually became useful (as they used the caster's save DC), but they're expensive, and it's more than a little difficult to retrain players on that.



Neither do I. Hence that elf ambush (well, it was elves) I outlined above. But even in other campaigns (I'm not always DMs), even if the DM does that players frequently try the 15 minute day anyway.

I don't view using up your spells and still having to occasionally keep going as a nerf. It is the price of playing a mage. If you don't ever want to have to deal with losing what you are best at then play a fighter type. Or play a warlock and fire an eldrtich blast every round.

In all the years I have been playing 3E I have never been in a TPK and that is with different DMs. Part of that is the practice of carrying wands and potions. And no I don't see it as a problem. They are relativity cheap and you can use as many charges as needed. In combat wands may be impractical but so is casting a heal. If your cleric is not just a healer but also a tank taking him out of combat to cast healing can also hurt the party.

They enable you to stay alive and yes sometimes you may need to back away and stay out of range and fire crossbows. Maybe not the most effective but every bit of damage can help bring down the bad guy.

As for scrolls I use them a lot when I am playing a mage and I have never seen them as weak. Sure they may not be as strong as the spell itself but they still do damage and help spread out the resources.

Part of this is knowing when to cast magic. The party is fighting a bunch of low level goblins and taking them down easily then this is not the time to blow off your big area effect spells. Save those for the hard encounters and use your lower level spells like magic missile. I have found a wand of magic missile to be effective in these type of encounters. Its cheap and does a good job on mooks.

I guess some of this maybe a matter of playing style. The groups I play with sometimes enjoy a major challenge where we have to be creative and deal with what we have.

One of the best sessions I ever played in was one where we had been captured and were going to be forced to fight in an arena. We choose to escape which meant leaving all our items behind. We had to sneak through enemy territory using what we had. I played a sorcerer so I was able to cast mage armor on the fighters. The druid made everyone a quarterstaff. We did hit and run ambush on troops to slowly get more weapons and supplies. It was a challenge and at times scary. But the satisfaction of our accomplishment was stronger then any were we had a defeated a foe fully powered.

I am not saying I would want to play every session like that but once and awhile it is nice to have to think outside the box.
 

First, that assumes that combat efficiency is the decisive factor. That is both myopic and not really to the point.

Combat efficacy is the entire point of the 15MWD.

Second, there can be -- and certainly is in, e.g., old RuneQuest -- a direct link between training and combat efficiency, and between equipment (weapons, armor, spells) and combat efficiency -- and it takes money to get training and equipment.

What does it take to get money for those? Adventuring. If your 16-year old in old RQ I or II has any edge in survival and success, and is not a noble, then it is probably due to having gone into debt.

If you don't carry on to get the treasure, then you're back to square one with another day down. In my experience, it's much the same in old D&D.

Agreed. I said as much when I talked about hoarding $$$ to get resources to expend in adventuring.


The only way a day off is cost free is if the rest of the world takes a day off, too. If your guys are in combat, how come the enemy lets them dictate the pace and time and place of combat?

Which is what I was saying about DM complicity in the 15MWD: this can't happen unless the DM lets it happen. That's what I'm talking about when I said the 15MWD arises when the DM is letting them retreat and reload without consequences.

Uh, that looks to me like a very good explanation of why this does make the "15 minute workday" impractical.

SAN mechanics don't affect the 15MWD. The 15MWD happens when a party can adventure, retreat and reload in a short period if time. You won't include SAN mechanics in your "should we or shouldn't we" decision-making because SAN won't come back after a short rest and reload. Your PC is going nuts whatever he decides to do, so he's going to look at his other resources- ammo, food, water, physical health- that he actually CAN replenish with a short break. Youre simply not going to say, "We gotta turn back and rest- I only have one SAN left" because you can't do anything about it within the time-frame of the adventure.
 
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