What is the 15-minute adventuring day?

[LostSoul]

You could have Daily Powers require GP to refresh (as well as an Extended Rest).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Danny, I'm talking about removing daily powers, AKA Vancian magic, altogether (I should've been clear about that) and replacing the 'X uses per day' with some other kind of limitation.

I understand you, but it's not the Vancian/daily resource management- nor any other particular kind- of resource management issue that creates the problem.

The problem ONLY occurs when players are allowed to replenish resources while the world remains essentially static around them.

To illustrate this, even in 3.X psionics- about as non-Vancian as D&D gets- you still had DMs complaining about Psi-centric parties going nova then disengaging to replenish.

If you go to a straight-up "Items are the only source of magic, and once depleted, they are non-magical" resource model, players with the 15 Minute Mentality will do with wealth and items what they do with Vancian spells and Psionic PPs: horde wealth to buy items; use items 'till depleted; retreat and use wealth to replenish store of items before advancing again.

The only way for the system to affect this mentality is to remove virtually all depletable/renewable resources from the game.

The GM, OTOH, has much more flexibility.

 

[Stormonu]

The only systemic change to an RPG that would solve the 15 minute day would be to make all (or nearly all) of a PCs significant resources renew after each encounter. They would make it play something like a martial arts cobalt game- Tekken, Mortal Kombat, etc.- because the party would be able to nova all the time without fear of repercussion.

While that's GREAT for those arcade games, that's not something I'd want formmy RPG experience. I'd much rather have a game with meaningful resource management, concerns about patrols or hidden threats, and so forth, leaving the problem and the solution in the hands of the game's players (on both sides of the screen).

The mechanic I've seen that helps was called Momentum. You couldn't start an encounter with something like a finger of death, you had to gather Momentum though sucessful, succesive actions to do "better" stuff (including recovering hp) You could lose Momentum with a failed attack roll or standing idle, for example.

 

[Ranes]

The only way for the system to affect this mentality is to remove virtually all depletable/renewable resources from the game.

I have to agree. In fact, here's a thing. Please bear with me, because it's going to sound off-topic for a paragraph or three. I write and edit for a living. I'm not saying, "Look at me, baby," or anything but it's not easy to do and earn a decent living but that is what I do. I'm also older than the Internet, which has had an interesting effect on writing. When I was young, among all the literary guidance I learned, I also picked up a few practical tips about that which I wanted to do and which I now do. Two rules in particular I held close to my heart. The Internet challenges these two rules but it has not, as yet, completely invalidated them, and I the reason I bring them up will become clear in a moment.

Rule one was never, ever write anything for free. The reasoning is that, if you want to live as a writer, you simply have to demand some compensation for your efforts. If you write for free, not only will you not earn a living by your work, others may not be able to either.

Rule two was don't self publish. The received wisdom, back before anyone had imagined e-publishing, was that, if you were worth publishing, a publisher somewhere would see to it that you were published. If you published yourself, you would not have the benefit of being nurtured by a highly-trained and motivated desk editor and, as a result, you would irredeemably undermine your own credibility.

I do not blog or maintain a personal website for these reasons, among others; the fact is that these practices are just too close to the two rules above for me to feel comfortable indulging myself in these ways. And hey, I get published enough, even if it's anonymously a lot of the time.

Incidentally, thanks for bearing with me. My point is this: I've recently become a so-called 'community supporter'. This means I now get a regular, if automatically generated, PM from Morrus telling me that I've earned 'gold pieces'. Well, if that bastion of RPG publishing, EN World - and no, I'm not being sarcastic - is paying me to hang around, then I can write for it, so that is what I am going to do. I am going to write an article on how DMs can banish the 15MWD and have everyone enjoy the way they do it, because, it really shouldn't be an issue.

I'm making this commitment, because it seems like a worthwhile challenge and I can justify doing it. I also just happen to be on the cusp of an unusually quiet weekend.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I would love to say that I had never encountered the 15 minute adventuring day - but I would be lying.

When I was running a game at a local game shop it was standard practice, until Reserve Feats were introduced. I consider the Reserve Feats from late 3.5 to be overpowered, but from a GM standpoint, gods they were convenient. I was willing to forgive them their power for that reason.

That game shop was the only time I ever encountered it, except for very low levels in older editions of the game.

I have not encountered it in Pathfinder yet - they seem to be doing a good job of conserving and managing resources. (But the teens 'n' tweens game... I have to tell them that their group needs to rest - I have seen them trudge along with single digits in their hit points, spells and channelings consumed. No TPK yet, but that's because I have given them warnings that heroes of level 5+ should not be running around with 8 HP....)

The Auld Grump, who is worried now that the kids have access to Raise Dead....

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Obviously, I disagree, but what elements of 3Ed's design make you feel this way?

IMO, any system that has "daily resources" can run into this issue.

3e made the situation pretty bad by giving spellcasters:
1) Powerful top-level spells, and making most low-level spells useless (especially attack spells).
2) Once a spellcaster is tapped out, they end up quite weak. This is especially true for wizards, who tend to have stronger spells but low hp, low BAB, poor saves, etc.
3) 3e's resource management system is hard to understand (what does 25% of resources mean when you're not a spellcaster?), and varies depending on the class anyway. If the fighter is at full hit points due to cleric healing, and the cleric has no spell slots left, is that 50% resource use? Probably not, as there's probably still wands and potions around... (Note, that situation probably never literally comes up.)

In one encounter I ran in 3.5, my PCs defeated a group of opponents, and the two NPC sorcerers fled. One of the players actually grabbed their character cards and noted they had many spells left, and complained about it. (Yes, 15 minute adventuring days can affect NPCs too! Although it didn't have much to do with resource management.)

In 4e, there are daily powers, action points and healing surges. Players have the most control over the first (they often don't use them), less control of the second and not a whole lot of control over the third. (I'm not bothering to discuss items; most of my DMing experience is in low-item Dark Sun.)

Fortunately, encounter powers help to "fight" this problem, especially if, at low levels, you use themes. A 3rd-level PC using themes gets 3 encounter powers. If a fight lasts 6 rounds, half the time they're not using at-wills. In core 3.x this solution didn't exist, and out of core, I can't recall anything like that beyond Bo9S.

Some groups will do the opposite of saving daily powers, using their dailies as quickly as possible and then wanting to rest, which would be "15 minutes". I think the problem tends to disappear once PCs can use two or three dailies, but that takes a lot of levels.

Some adventures are written to promote the 15 minute day. Keep on the Shadowfell did this. Because there's no provision for adding new monsters to the keep if the PCs leave and little penalty for waiting, if the DM strictly follows the adventure, PCs might very well follow this strategy. (They're also penalized if the DM acts a little more realistically; if you engage monsters in room 3, allied monsters in room 4 probably won't just let their buddies die.)

And of course, sometimes players are "too smart". In one nasty encounter I put my PCs through, they encountered an NPC necromancer, seemingly by himself, sitting on a hill over the Silt Sea. Recognizing a set piece when they saw one, one of the players said they could just wait for the guy to dehydrate, as their home base (a dwarf town) was nearby, and they could resupply easily, whereas they knew the NPC was far from home. Except the villain was working on a ritual of some kind. They didn't know what it was (frankly, it was just "flavor text" to get them moving). They ended up engaging him in combat, as they feared he might have been making a more powerful undead monster. (Not true, but if I let them believe that I'm not in the least bit sorry about it.) Alas, the 15 minute working day is "smart" if there's no additional motivator (like time-based plots).

On another note, I think it's unfair to just say "DM problem". Some DMs aren't that experienced, and it's not their fault. Sometimes the pool of available DnD players is small, so the experience pool is small too. Some DMs are more interested in running for fun.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IMO, any system that has "daily resources" can run into this issue.

Any system that has depleteable/renewable resources can encounter this problem, regardless of the interval, if the GM lets the renewal interval pass with the campaign world on "pause."

On another note, I think it's unfair to just say "DM problem". Some DMs aren't that experienced, and it's not their fault. Sometimes the pool of available DnD players is small, so the experience pool is small too. Some DMs are more interested in running for fun.

OTOH, I think it's perfectly fair to point out the GM's culpability in this and say it is a significant reason, but don't excuse them for their lack of experience. Experience comes with time.

If a baseball pitcher puts a medium speed pitch over the center of the plate, and it gets hit for a homer, that is his fault, regardless of experience level. However, over time, that pitcher will learn better pitch selection and location, making it far less likely he'll make that mistake.

It's the same for the GM: as the controller of the campaign's reality, it's on his shoulders if the party can settle into a 15 minute workday. Over time, though, he should be able to learn what steps make such a playstyle less of a problem for him...if he or she deems it to be a problem, that is.

After all, we gots dis ting called duh Interwebzes.

 

[Balesir]

The only systemic change to an RPG that would solve the 15 minute day would be to make all (or nearly all) of a PCs significant resources renew after each encounter.

While that is obviously one systemic 'fix', I think there is another available - and it was even used to an extent in 4E until recently.

You can just make extending the "work day" bring additional benefits that offset the obvious benefit of replenishing resources through a rest.

4E does this with milestones. Milestones, as originally envisaged, delivered action points (not a great help for this specific problem, I think, since you get one after an extended rest anyway and their capabilities are identical whether from rest or milestone) and daily item uses. This latter gain was unpopular in certain quarters, I understand, but it did serve a valuable purpose. If the characters possessed more than one item with a daily power, they only got to use them all by passing milestones. Not a stunning benefit, to be sure, but better than nothing. More systemic elements like it might make the "rest and replenish or take milestone benefits" one more balanced. More impressive daily item powers (that actually used the "daily uses") may have been a working formula, too.

 

[Elf Witch]

I have heard of the 15 minute day but have never experienced it.

The groups I play with keep going when the spell casters are out of spells. The only thing that will stop us is if we are running out of healing. Which rarely happens because we tend to stock up on wands and potions.

I don't get this attitude that you have to be at full strength all the time to take on a challenge. If your fighters can still fight then you just have to deal with the tactics of not having arcane magic available. The other thing I don't get is being down less than a 1/3 of your hitpoints and wasting healing. I have seen players whose PCs are down 5 hit points out of 75 depending a heal. To me that is not using your resources wisely.

When I DM if was faced with this kind of situation depending on the situation they would not automatically get to rest.

 

[Ariosto]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Tomb of Horrors seems to me an odd example to cite, because I don't recall it having a lot to do with using up resources -- and characters of such high levels tend to have resources of all sorts in plenty. I don't see any big advantage in going through just one room per day.

Not that it would be some kind of big problem for people to do that, either. If treasure seekers want to spend the afternoon playing Cricket or something, so what? The Tomb game should proceed just fine regardless.

My memory from 30 years ago is vague, but I think we usually went on until we were stumped by something. There was also some stuff going on in camp, but it was not the focus.