That didn't seem to be enough work for those who were complaining about the 15 Minute workday in that thread I linked to upthread...and that was originally started in July 2008. Seemingly not a fix.
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What is the 15-minute adventuring day?
- Thread starter jasper
- Start date
That didn't seem to be enough work for those who were complaining about the 15 Minute workday in that thread I linked to upthread...and that was originally started in July 2008. Seemingly not a fix.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
That's probably an unusual group. I've been playing DnD since 1994 and I've never seen a group willingly do this.
Some groups never did the latter. I know my group pretty much never bought wands or potions. (In fact, I'm pretty sure healing potions are never a good option. They weigh too much per hit point healed.) A 750 gp Wand of Cure Light Wounds is another story, but only useful between combats. If the opponents you face are capable of dishing out substantial damage, a wand of CLW is very little defense.
Usually DMs try to put boss battles at the end of the day. And players want to fight bosses at the beginning of the day. A party low on resources becomes much more risk-averse.
I've seen PCs stop adventuring for the day because someone got hit by a nasty effect that inflicted negative levels... for 1 hour/level. (Just one PC, so it wasn't too bad, but obviously not a heap of fun for the player of said character.)
Playing while more powerful is fun. Losing a character because you're tapped out and got ganked isn't. (Of course, the real issue is, how much power loss is acceptable? Not wanting to fight because you spent three top level spells is being too risk averse, IMO. Not wanting to fight because the whole party look level drains is another story.)
In my last DnD session that I ran (4e), the PCs fought two encounters in a row. One was easy, but the PCs still used up all their healing surge boosters (it's different in 4e, mind). They hadn't used Second Winds though. Then the next encounter, a +1 level one starting with surprise, immediately went off. They hadn't had the chance to recharge on any encounter powers (for instance, the shaman's healing spirit). They came this close to death. (In fact, I made a rules error, it really should have been a TPK.) That's why players don't want to fight when low on resources. Unlike in a CRPG, you never know when a "boss" encounter is coming.
Not only is that wasting a spell, it's also wasting a PC's action. I've never seen this in any games I've been in, but I don't doubt the phenomenon exists.
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To clarify:
There is a categorical difference between tactically retreating to get to a more defensible position or because someone just handed you your butt in a nicely wrapped package with a bow on top and the 15 Minute Day in which you simply blew through your resources in short order so you retreat to reload.
If we use money as an analog for D&D resources, the first is like spending money wisely and re-evaluating your finances, the second is like taking a bath in the stock market so you regroup, and the third is like going on a shopping spree with someone else's money- Titanium Card?- and overpaying for everything (because cost doesn't matter), then resuming when the credit card rolls over, again and again.
There is a categorical difference between tactically retreating to get to a more defensible position or because someone just handed you your butt in a nicely wrapped package with a bow on top and the 15 Minute Day in which you simply blew through your resources in short order so you retreat to reload.
If we use money as an analog for D&D resources, the first is like spending money wisely and re-evaluating your finances, the second is like taking a bath in the stock market so you regroup, and the third is like going on a shopping spree with someone else's money- Titanium Card?- and overpaying for everything (because cost doesn't matter), then resuming when the credit card rolls over, again and again.
Eagerly awaiting!
I have been playing since the late 1970s and I have never encountered the 15 minute day unless it was due to something like major damage to most of the party.
I as a player went into the big boss fight once as a sorcerer with only cantrips left. In the end it was my character who took out the bad guy with my rapier. It was one of the best combats I ever played in.
Part of the game in resource management. Players who go nova on every encounter are the ones who most likely feel they need to rest and be fully charged for every encounter.
We try and carry a couple of healing potions in case we need them and the healer can't get to us or worse the healer is the one knocked out. I have found that they can make the difference between life and death in a major combat. A couple really don't weigh that much.
We usually use CLW wands to get great effect. Right now our cleric is also our tank and the only cure we usually get from him is from a wand. He tend to use is spells in combat.
The other thing that can help is for the arcane casters to have some scrolls in reserve in case magic is needed.
We also play Shadowrun so that may have something to do with it. In Shadowrun if you are a mage you can roll badly to resist drain and then not be able to use magic for the rest of the run. You adapt and keep going because quitting may mean not being able to ever accomplish the mission.
The DMs I have played with don't have the world hold still while the PCs rest and sleep. So taking time out can make it much harder in the long run.
It is a decision you have to make.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
And as a counter, in a short-lived game of Mutants & Masterminds I was in, the entire party got "nerfed" and locked in a mental institution. We escaped and were very slowly getting our powers back. It wasn't a whole lot of fun and that essentially ended the campaign. Players don't like being nerfed.
On this I agree. There's little benefit to a wizard not using their top-level spells every encounter, except for the need to be ready for other encounters.
I was thinking like 50, as only a couple are kind of useless both in and out of combat. Being able to cure 4d8+6 (two Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds) isn't a big deal with an orc can deal that much damage with two swings. At 1st-level.
Don't you see a problem with that? If someone got clocked three times by a barbarian's axe, or zapped by Disintegrate or Harm, or breathed on by a dragon, or hit by sneak attack (surprise round) and then again (first strike), I would think a CLW wand just won't be enough whilst combat is still raging. In this situation, a badly-wounded PC is advised to retreat immediately, which means abandoning their party in combat.
3e made scrolls really weak. A scroll of a defensive spell works pretty well, but a scroll of Fireball is dishing out a save DC of 14 and probably the lowest number of damage dice.
In 3.5 staffs actually became useful (as they used the caster's save DC), but they're expensive, and it's more than a little difficult to retrain players on that.
Neither do I. Hence that elf ambush (well, it was elves) I outlined above. But even in other campaigns (I'm not always DMs), even if the DM does that players frequently try the 15 minute day anyway.
But that ISN'T the 15 minute workday- your party got clocked and couldn't do much of anything until they recovered significantly. They were inactive because they had suffered a major setback; they had little choice.
The 15MWD occurs when you voluntarily burn through your resources rapidly, then retreat to reload, knowing there are no consequences for doing so, virtually ensuring you're at full power for the next encounter. The mission will not fail or be mooted by the PCs downtime.
IMHO, that's a pretty significant reason. Restraint in spellcasting has usually served me and my fellow table-buddies pretty well over the years. The sight of mages doing coup de graces with daggers or firing crossbows at peripheral targets is pretty commonplace in the campaigns in which I've participated, and it let's them conserve their REAL power until it's needed.
It's not MAGICAL, but so what? It IS good tactics...a something a very intelligent (Wizards) or wise (divine classed) persons would grasp.
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
The point was to point out the effects of being underpowered. Given how M&M works, there's no issues with 15 minute workdays in it.
As I mentioned earlier (I think on the previous page), getting your head around 3.x resource management is not easy. There's no guidelines for knowing how many spells to dish out per combat, and often players want to cast an attack spell every round. It doesn't help that your best attack spells are your top-line spells (save DC issues, if nothing else), and you rarely have time to use more than one defense/buff spell* (not counting buff-n-scry situations, of course), which means few rounds spent on the lower-level defensive spells.
*(Except the occasional inexperienced player. I can never forget this new player, playing a mid-level cleric [joined the campaign late] wasting three rounds on buff spells. By the time his initiative rolled around for the 4th round, the battle was already over.)
IME, even if DMs use lots of time pressure, the PCs still dish out spells until they're tapped out of high-level slots, and then realistically have to stop adventuring.
Mind you, I have seen lots of wizards do the CdG thing, but only in 2e. Spell selection was much more limited, and you had fewer spells per day. (Also, darts didn't sucks, not when you can throw 3/round.)
Good tactics, crossing with player fun. Maybe part of the problem is that "novas are fun" or "disintegrate is more fun than using a crossbow".
While a lot of visitors here seem to dislike the lack of Vancian magic in 4e, I'm glad it's (almost) gone. A magical PC can do something magical every round, and you get one or more encounter powers to play with, so barring being surprised by magically disguised elves, you should always have those available. Even if you've used all your dailies, you're not hosed if you're tapped out of them, so PCs are more willing to press forward and not huddle in a hole. (If anything, IME, PCs rarely use their dailies in 4e, hoping to "save them" for when something nasty happens. Same with action points.)
Can't agree or disagree, though I haven't heard any complaints. But then again, M&M generally doesn't have much in the way of depletable resources besides ammo.
At the core, resource management in 3.X is little different from 1Ed or 2Ed, games I (and others) picked up as pre-teens. It's not THAT difficult.
Not necessarily "crossing with" fun. I doubt that people would play that way for 20+ years if they weren't having fun.
It's a mindset- possibly heavily influenced by the legends and genre fiction that players grew up with- that mages don't use magic for everything, all the time. Gandalf fights mages with magic...but engages the Balrog with his sword. Did Merlin use utensils to eat or did he "magic" the food into his mouth. Elric uses powerful magics, but rarely uses magic until he has no choice.
Generally, a LOT- not all- the sources I grew up reading had mages use magic like a tool: when needed, as needed.* If things didn't require magic, none was used.
But if your heroes of sword & spells were "all magic, all the time," I can see how that style of resource management would seem alien and even unfun.
That's still a playstyle preference, though. As I stated above, you CAN play that way in D&D. If your DM likes it, it is all cool. If he doesn't, then it's the 15MWD problem. By trying to institute a systemic remedy by changing the mechanics, you remove flexibility from the game.
* My one major exception was comic books with magical characters.
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