D&D General What is the appeal of Tolkien fantasy races?

[Oofta]

That only counts if your are from the traditional far group of D&D.

If you are from an area, group, or culture with establishe dragon, demon, or animal tropes, no other questions are needed.

The traditional races only have a wider appeal due to Tolkien's appeal and the extremely high number of copycats.
The other side is that the traditional races are so well known, many authors and designers are subverting and breaking the tropes. So eventually the assumptions on traditional elves will no longer be first guesses. AKA Warcraft orcs and Age of Sigmarr Duardin (Goddammit Games Workshop).

Why does that matter? A significant number of people that play D&D are from what you label the "traditional fan group of D&D". I mean, I happen to disagree with that categorization because the tropes have spread far and wide beyond D&D but it still doesn't matter.

A big subset of players like specific races because of the lore attached to them which can be traced back to (basically) Tolkien which has then been part of a big echo chamber. Which is why they appeal to that subset. The thread, and no one on the thread, is arguing that they are "better" or that their appeal is universal.

 

[Scribe]

If you want to explore some tropes there is the tropes website with examples for D&D races (both Tolkienish core ones and the more exotic ones like tiefling and dragonborn) and general catfolk and dragon people and lizard folk and snake people and bird people and others.

Yes, I'm aware of the site. That's not the point however. Because of Tolkien's prevalence, many (majority?) of Fantasy fans, do not need to go to such a site for Elves and Dwarves.

That, is the point of this thread.

 

[Weiley31]

It's because it Tolkein nothing else has had the same cultural impact.


Sets are still there.

That was one hell of a DND campaign Colbert had going on there.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

So if an author popularizes old folk tales in such a way that another race:

1. becomes known throughout the western world

2. Spawns a game (yes reverend Gygax, they did influence you!) that pretty much kicked off archetypical things in video games other games and fiction for decades that follow

3. are ubiquitous for decades and become part of the language of fantasy

then that race too will get your shot!

maybe.

I think the fact that they are closer to humanity, exaggerating certain aspects of our world also means they endure.

That said, I don’t think “spider people,” “elephant people,” or “lizard people” will resonate as much due to their more alien nature at least for a while.

you can disagree but that is my belief.

would all of this be true in all cultures? Dunno. They get to decide. But frankly D&D is a western invention steeped in European folklore and American assumptions. That it was embraced an popularized in America and disseminated in an an enduring way is beyond debate.

will new generations hook into less “human” characters? Maybe. Part of their cultural space is taken up by anime and other fiction. The game is drifting from its feudal roots also seems to be true.

sadly for me, but happily for others. But the other issue is that the dwarven and elven and Hobbit cultures are actually fairly rich.

some say otherwise but I think seeing them as dull is just a function of players being overly familiar with and numb to many of these things.

If you were naive to dwarves of D&D and Tolkien, you would find their take on religion and culture and war and wealth and honor to be novel and different. After all of these years it’s “just dwarves,” to some because they are so familiar or the player just plays a dwarf as a short human who pounds ale and little else.

so is say their popularity is due to a combination of different from but also similar “enough” to humanity to hit the sweet spot.

 

[Minigiant]

Why does that matter? A significant number of people that play D&D are from what you label the "traditional fan group of D&D". I mean, I happen to disagree with that categorization because the tropes have spread far and wide beyond D&D but it still doesn't matter.

A big subset of players like specific races because of the lore attached to them which can be traced back to (basically) Tolkien which has then been part of a big echo chamber. Which is why they appeal to that subset. The thread, and no one on the thread, is arguing that they are "better" or that their appeal is universal.

The point is that the tropes for elves,drwarves, and halflings are universally popular.

Them being popular doesn't mean other races aren't popular in specific areas.
AKA
"Everyone doesn't know the tropes for catfolk" is true
"No one knows the tropes for catfolk" is false.

 

[Oofta]

The point is that the tropes for elves,drwarves, and halflings are universally popular.

Them being popular doesn't mean other races aren't popular in specific areas.
AKA
"Everyone doesn't know the tropes for catfolk" is true
"No one knows the tropes for catfolk" is false.

There isn't much consistency on what catfolk would be like, at least not with as much depth or consistency. Google "fantasy books about dwarves" or "fantasy books about elves" and you'll get a tons. In most of them the cultures represented will be very similar.

Are there stories about cats? Sure. But what does Felix the cat have to do with The Pink Panther, the kzinti, thunder cats or tabaxi? They share an image, maybe a handful of characteristics if you squint.

Well, that and cat people are the exception to the rule.

 

[Minigiant]

There isn't much consistency on what catfolk would be like, at least not with as much depth or consistency. Google "fantasy books about dwarves" or "fantasy books about elves" and you'll get a tons. In most of them the cultures represented will be very similar


Are there stories about cats? Sure. But what does Felix the cat have to do with The Pink Panther, the kzinti, thunder cats or tabaxi? They share an image, maybe a handful of characteristics if you squint.

Well, that and cat people are the exception to the rule.

There isn't consistency on elves either.

D&D elves were the 4th type of elf I was introduced to.

1. Christmas Elf
2. Fey Elf
3. LOTR Elf
4. D&D Elf

We D&D fans only choose to accept the toned down LOTR elf as the D&D elf. Then spread the idea like wildfire. Doesn't mean its the only idea of elves out there. Same with the non-transforming-into-dragons dwarves.

 

[Oofta]

There isn't consistency on elves either.

D&D elves were the 4th type of elf I was introduced to.

1. Christmas Elf
2. Fey Elf
3. LOTR Elf
4. D&D Elf

We D&D fans only choose to accept the toned down LOTR elf as the D&D elf. Then spread the idea like wildfire. Doesn't mean its the only idea of elves out there. Same with the non-transforming-into-dragons dwarves.

Fine. You win. When people think of fantasy elves they think of Santa's elves, ancient Celtic mythology. Nobody has any concept of any fantasy race, it's all in my imagination. Tolkien and D&D versions have absolutely no cultural resonance. Your in depth analysis and reasoning has convinced me.

Have a good one.

 

[DND_Reborn]

FWIW, my order of elven introduction was:

1. Christmas Elf
2. Keebler Elf (I forgot these!)
3. D&D Elf
4. Tolkien/LOTR Elf
5. no f'ing clue what a Fey Elf is supposed to be... for me it stopped at LOTR...

 

[Oofta]

FWIW, my order of elven introduction was:

1. Christmas Elf
2. D&D Elf
3. Tolkien/LOTR Elf
4. no f'ing clue what a Fey Elf is supposed to be... for me it stopped at LOTR...

I assume fey elf is referencing Sidhe, which aren't really elves. There's also a lot of fuzzy mythology between elves, dwarves, little people, faeries and so on depending on which stories you read. Oh, and also everyone who plays an elf is an expert enough in Tolkien to make a distinction between LOTR and D&D elves.

Of course there's also keebler elves which are super important.