What is the best way to create effective Monk only with core rules?

[Shin Okada]

My play group is usually playing with core rules only. And the least played class is Monk. It seems that only with core rules, they are somewhat underpowered. But anyway, we will continue to play only with cores and I will try if I can make an effective monk character.

Core rules only, 32 point buy, from the first level. In this environment, what is the best way (race, stats, feats, etc.) to create an effective Monk?

 

[James McMurray]

Human:

Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

You may want to start as a fighter sot hat you can get Weapon Focus and Finesse(unarmed) at first level. You could also go Dwarf to up your CON by two points (lowering your Cha by 2 as well).

If you don't go fighter, maybe dodge and mobility for feats. Try to set it up so taht you are the guy who lets the rogue flank. also, don't go overboard on the flury of misses. Use it when the -2 doesn't hurt, or when you can only hit on a 20 anyway.

 

[Bonedagger]

I think I would lower that Wis by 2 and get 4 in Int in return. More Skillpoints. (Tumble, Move Silently, Hide in shadow etc.)

 

[Christian]

It really depends what you want to achieve, Shin. I've been playing a monk for a while, just hit sixth level, and here's what I can tell you:

1) The Wisdom bonus to AC comes nowhere near making up for the armor prohibition. Don't try to make a primary combatant-my guy can deal a lot of damage, but he sucks up a lot too, and doesn't have near enough hit points.

2) If you do expect to fight a lot anyway, the Tumble skill and the Mobility and Expertise feats are your friends. Don't stand around letting things beat on you-dart in and out taking good opportunities to deal some damage while minimizing risk to yourself. Spring Attack is probably good, too-I just picked up the feat, so I can't say for sure.

3) If you get stuck in melee, flurry, flurry, flurry! The times when it's better not to use Flurry of Blows when you get a full attack are so massively rare that it's best not to think about it.

4) Your good saves, special abilities, and speed make you a natural mage-killer. SOP for PC and NPC groups alike is to put some grunts up front dealing melee damage while a Wizard or Sorcerer cowers in back tossing devastating spells. When the Monk tumbles past/through those front lines and hits the mage with a Stunning Fist ... well, suffice to say that mages have poor Armor Classes and Fortitude saves. You do the math.

5) Likewise, the saves and abilities, including the pretty decent combat skill, make a Monk a good scout. Move Silently and Listen, and (I wish I'd done this) some cross-class Spot points help here. (Alertness feat too-I did do that, and have never regretted it. Sucks to be flat-footed when you have no armor ...) If something does jump you before you see it, your combat skills and saves make it likely that you'll be able to get away and warn your party, and your high movement rate makes it likely that the warning will get there before the beastie does.

6) Speaking of the Alertness suggestion above, Improved Initiative is a good feat I wish I'd taken. Maybe at 9th level ...

Just a few thoughts from the trenches ...

 

[James McMurray]

Even with a 10 int, you're getting 5 skill points per level. That means you can keep Tumble, Spot or Listen, Move Silently, Hide in shadows, and Jump maxed out. Maybe lower wis by one to get +2 int (to allow maxing spot and listen). Then at 4th you can up the wis to 16 for the boost to AC and will saves.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

Fighter1 then monk. Get the highest Dex you can (an elf is an excellent choice) and weapon finesse Unarmed strike. Then either a 13 str or Int, depending on wether you would rather get Power attack or Expertise. I wouldn't go overboard on the wisdom, maybe a modifier of +1 (+2 at most). and get some points into Con for more hit points.

If you can freely multiclass between monk and fighter, a second level of fighter is a good idea for the feat and hit points. Dont worry about the fighter BaB no stacking witht the unarmed BaB of the monk. There are times when you will not be able to make a Full Attack, such as when you move then attack. Then you will get use outta those fighter BaB.

High Dex+ weapon finesse unarmed strike is great cuz you are getting double or even triple usage out of that dex bonus. AC, attack roll, second attack roll in a flurry or at higher levels. Weapon focus those fists when you can, since you will get multiple attacks alot of times. Pick skills that work of dex, move silently, hide, tumble.

 

[Christian]

also, don't go overboard on the flury of misses. Use it when the -2 doesn't hurt, or when you can only hit on a 20 anyway.

Sorry, James, but I can't let this one go by unchallenged. If you need *exactly an eighteen* to hit with your highest iterative attack bonus, you will do better with your normal attacks. With any other number, you will hit more often overall, even with the -2, by using a flurry. Selective memory makes a lot of people feel this way-the time you missed by two when flurrying when you really needed that hit sticks in your mind ... but you will hit more often and do more damage by flurrying. Really. Do the math if you don't believe me-it's not that difficult for low-level monks. (It's harder with high-level monks that have more than one base unarmed attack, but it comes out the same at the other end.)

Now, how often do you know you need exactly an eighteen? I don't worry about it much anymore. Really, the biggest problem with flurrying for a monk is that it takes a full attack, which means you're standing in the middle of a slugfest. Usually this is Bad News (tm) for a monk ...

 

[SableWyvern]

I'd go for

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 17
Cha: 8

Your AC will start 1 lower, but at 4th, put Wis to 18 and you've caught up - plus the high Wis means you're better off when you lose Dex bonus to AC. At level 8 you can up Con, and you've then got +1 hp/level as well.

This set up is even more handy if you can manage to get some S&F feats - like Mantis Leap, that requires Wis 19. I'd be happy with human for the extra feat and skill points, although dwarf is certainly not a bad call. I certainly wouldn't rate extra skill points worth an AC drop.

 

[Bonedagger]

Even with a 10 int, you're getting 5 skill points per level. That means you can keep Tumble, Spot or Listen, Move Silently, Hide in shadows, and Jump maxed out. Maybe lower wis by one to get +2 int (to allow maxing spot and listen). Then at 4th you can up the wis to 16 for the boost to AC and will saves.

No Climb and Escape Artist?

 

[Christian]

Oh, and one more thing. (Geez! I must be getting senile!) Strength is a lot more useful for a monk than most people seem to appreciate. Monks get more multiple attacks than even a fighter, and even more when the flurry; and unlike a two-weapon fighter, their full Strength bonus is added to each and every attack! This can really start to add up ... With a 32-point buy, I would do something like:

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 9

There's something to be said for switching the Wisdom and Dexterity, actually. Your loss is in ranged attack ability and Reflex saves; your gain is in flat-footed Armor Class, Will saves, and save DC's for your special attacks (eg. Stunning Fist). Depends how much ranged combat you expect to see, really.

You don't have to worry about spending a feat on Weapon Finesse here-a waste of a feat for only a +1 to hit. I wouldn't do Weapon Focus either, for the same reason. You'll do plenty of combat damage without those bonuses-you need to focus more on defense. I'd look at Dodge, Expertise, Mobility, Alertness, Improved Initiative in my primary feat list ...

I strongly recommend playing a human-the bonus feat and skill points will really be handy. Good skills to start with are Tumble, Tumble, and Tumble. Oh, and don't forget Jump-it gives a synergy bonus to Tumble. Spot and Listen are good skills for anyone, but especially useful for a Monk; Climb is also good (anything to help your overall mobility ...), Swim for the same reason, maybe Move Silenty & Hide if you're going to focus on scouting.