What is the best way to create effective Monk only with core rules?
- Thread starter Shin Okada
- Start date
> if so take a lvl as psion or psychic warrior
I assumed the original poster wanted a pure Monk, perhaps he could clarify this?
I did consider taking a level or two of Rogue, thinking that the Sneak Attack damage and the tons of Skills would complement the Monks strengths nicely. I looked at a Monk3/Rogue2 and a Monk4/Rogue1. The latter worked out pretty well, but I decided to stay with Monk5 since it seemed un-Monkly to suddenly become interested in Rogue levels.
> I wouldn't mind seeing Gizzard and Christian's figures...
I dont have S&F; can you summarize their table? I'm not sure I grok it.
Anyway, my thought process was just for Monks with 1 basic attack, since thats what I am.
This should hold you 'til 8th level or so though. I started by trying to calculate my average damage per round. That is either:
regular damage = reg hit chance * avg dmg or:
flurry damage = flurry chance * avg dmg + flurry chance * avg dmg which becomes:
flurry damage = (2 * flurry chance) * avg dmg
So basically, if (2 * flurry chance) > (regular chance) then you are hitting more. So lets run some sample numbers (with my average damage of (1+8)/2 +2 = 6.5):
Need to roll 11 to hit:
Regular = 50% * 6.5 = 3.25
Flurry = (2 * 40%) * 6.5 = 5.2
Need 16 to hit:
Regular = 25% * 6.5 = 1.625
Flurry = (2 * 15%) * 6.5 = 1.95
Need 18 to hit:
Regular = 15% * 6.5 = .975 <- winner!
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 19 to hit:
Regular = 10% * 6.5 = .65 <-tie
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 20 to hit:
Regular = 5% * 6.5 = .325
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65 <- winner!
You can see from these examples how things get weird as the Flurry starts to auto-hit on a 20 despite the -2 penalty. After I've written this all out, I realize that the to-hit chance calculations are correct, but that to consider damage I really have to consider the criticals. I'll go through that tomorrow I think, but tonite I am too sleepy! ;-)
Still, it isnt going to change the idea that its not a "flurry of misses", you actually do hit more with the Flurry than not (except at 18).
The calculations incidentally highlight the fact that the Monk is not a big-time damage machine like the Fighter or Barbarian. I think our partys Barbarian would be shamed forever if he ever did only 5.2 points in a round to a lightly armored target.
I assumed the original poster wanted a pure Monk, perhaps he could clarify this?
I did consider taking a level or two of Rogue, thinking that the Sneak Attack damage and the tons of Skills would complement the Monks strengths nicely. I looked at a Monk3/Rogue2 and a Monk4/Rogue1. The latter worked out pretty well, but I decided to stay with Monk5 since it seemed un-Monkly to suddenly become interested in Rogue levels.
> I wouldn't mind seeing Gizzard and Christian's figures...
I dont have S&F; can you summarize their table? I'm not sure I grok it.
Anyway, my thought process was just for Monks with 1 basic attack, since thats what I am.
This should hold you 'til 8th level or so though. I started by trying to calculate my average damage per round. That is either:regular damage = reg hit chance * avg dmg or:
flurry damage = flurry chance * avg dmg + flurry chance * avg dmg which becomes:
flurry damage = (2 * flurry chance) * avg dmg
So basically, if (2 * flurry chance) > (regular chance) then you are hitting more. So lets run some sample numbers (with my average damage of (1+8)/2 +2 = 6.5):
Need to roll 11 to hit:
Regular = 50% * 6.5 = 3.25
Flurry = (2 * 40%) * 6.5 = 5.2
Need 16 to hit:
Regular = 25% * 6.5 = 1.625
Flurry = (2 * 15%) * 6.5 = 1.95
Need 18 to hit:
Regular = 15% * 6.5 = .975 <- winner!
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 19 to hit:
Regular = 10% * 6.5 = .65 <-tie
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 20 to hit:
Regular = 5% * 6.5 = .325
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65 <- winner!
You can see from these examples how things get weird as the Flurry starts to auto-hit on a 20 despite the -2 penalty. After I've written this all out, I realize that the to-hit chance calculations are correct, but that to consider damage I really have to consider the criticals. I'll go through that tomorrow I think, but tonite I am too sleepy! ;-)
Still, it isnt going to change the idea that its not a "flurry of misses", you actually do hit more with the Flurry than not (except at 18).
The calculations incidentally highlight the fact that the Monk is not a big-time damage machine like the Fighter or Barbarian. I think our partys Barbarian would be shamed forever if he ever did only 5.2 points in a round to a lightly armored target.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Gizzard said:
Well, multiclassing can be OK. But we are playing as written in PHB, so we cannot freely multiclass Monk (once quit, no more monk level). Also, we are not using psychic warrior. Tnanks.
Shin Okada said:
Is the MM considered a Core Book to your DM? I know it is, but that doesn't mean you can use it to make a PC.
I ask because I have a half-dragon monk/sorcerer. Very effective. The bonus strength is very useful.
A few levels of sorcerer can be a real advantage to a monk as well. You can have mage armor and/or shield to help with that "getting hit" problem. Plus you get a few more bennies for the template as well.
I'm having fun with it anyway. My character, Katan, is up to monk-10/sorcerer-2 (of course, having an ECL sucks for XP).
BTW, for campaign story purposes, he's half red dragon. This is obviously one of the most powerful of the dragon types. This seemed unfairly balanced to me, so I instituted a few houserules to mitigate the better breath weapon and fire immunity he gets compared to the average half dragon (say black for ex).
1) He has the fire sub-type. So double damage from cold except on a successful save. This can be painful for non-save effects like ice storm and freezing temperatures.
2) I stepped the breath weapon gradually based on HD. Similar to the Dragon Deciple PrC from T&B. So I didn't get the full 6d10 until recently.
Anyway, I guess I've been off-topic long enough.
"We now return you to your regular programming"
I agree that strength is key for monks (one of many important ability scores for them, unfortunately). Especially once you get Improved Trip. Without a high strength, don't even bother with this free ability. It will just end up making you frustrated (and flat on your back
).
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Even with 32 point-buy, I suggest not to go for a single high stat.
Strength is most important for melee combat - don`t waste a feat for weapon finese. High Strength will mean good hit chance and much damage, and it will help you at early level as well as at later levels.
Something like:
Str15 (8 pints)
Dex15(8 points)
Con 14 (6 points)
Int12 (4 points)
Wis 14 (6 points)
Cha8 (0 points)
... seems a good idea. Maybe get a fewer odd scores (but I think waiting until level 4 for at least one bonus should be fine with everyone. Maybe reduce Dex by 1 and add the points to Int)
Dexterity is important for many skills. Wisdom is only useful for the Monk AC Bonus (and roleplaying wise, it makes sense )
Be sure to get the Diplomacy skill to compensate for your bad charisma score, at least if you want to be useful outside of combat.
From the core rule feats, Dodge or Expertise might be very useful, including the feat chains. (Though Expertise might become seldomly used, because you prefer hitting the enemy)
You should consider not only concentrating on Unarmed Strikes, since you suck against Damage Reduction with it.
And your Attack bonus doesn`t increase by magical means.
If you have a Druid in the group (and expect him to stay longer ), you can probably rely on Magic Fang, otherwise, it becomes difficult without a magic weapon. (Though a friendly Bard or Rogue with Use Magic Device could help you here, but many players seem to oversee these oppertunities)
Mustrum Ridcully
Strength is most important for melee combat - don`t waste a feat for weapon finese. High Strength will mean good hit chance and much damage, and it will help you at early level as well as at later levels.
Something like:
Str15 (8 pints)
Dex15(8 points)
Con 14 (6 points)
Int12 (4 points)
Wis 14 (6 points)
Cha8 (0 points)
... seems a good idea. Maybe get a fewer odd scores (but I think waiting until level 4 for at least one bonus should be fine with everyone. Maybe reduce Dex by 1 and add the points to Int)
Dexterity is important for many skills. Wisdom is only useful for the Monk AC Bonus (and roleplaying wise, it makes sense
)Be sure to get the Diplomacy skill to compensate for your bad charisma score, at least if you want to be useful outside of combat.
From the core rule feats, Dodge or Expertise might be very useful, including the feat chains. (Though Expertise might become seldomly used, because you prefer hitting the enemy)
You should consider not only concentrating on Unarmed Strikes, since you suck against Damage Reduction with it.
And your Attack bonus doesn`t increase by magical means.
If you have a Druid in the group (and expect him to stay longer
), you can probably rely on Magic Fang, otherwise, it becomes difficult without a magic weapon. (Though a friendly Bard or Rogue with Use Magic Device could help you here, but many players seem to oversee these oppertunities)Mustrum Ridcully
> Though Expertise might become seldomly used, because
> you prefer hitting the enemy
And Expertise is the requires 13 INT, which is a big stretch for most Monks. :-(
I'd probably set INT at 10; I've been pretty happy with my Skills (though I am Human and get 5 points/level) so far. INT just doenst help enough compared to what one more point int STR, DEX or WIS does.
> I realize that the to-hit chance calculations are correct, but
> that to consider damage I really have to consider the criticals.
OK, so (quickly!) you do additional damage if you roll a 20 (5%) and then hit again. So multiply my original figures by 1.05 for regular hits, 1.10 for the flurry -- up until a natural 20 is required to hit. This change does have a slight effect; 19 is now very slightly better without the flurry as well. Here are the examples:
Need 18 to hit:
Regular = (105%) * (15% * 6.5) = 1.02 <- winner!
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 19 to hit:
Regular = (105%) * (10% * 6.5) = .68 <-winner
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 20 to hit:
Regular = 5% * 6.5 = .325
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65 <- winner!
Hopefully, my math is correct and complete at this point. And clear as well! ;-)
> you prefer hitting the enemy
And Expertise is the requires 13 INT, which is a big stretch for most Monks. :-(
I'd probably set INT at 10; I've been pretty happy with my Skills (though I am Human and get 5 points/level) so far. INT just doenst help enough compared to what one more point int STR, DEX or WIS does.
> I realize that the to-hit chance calculations are correct, but
> that to consider damage I really have to consider the criticals.
OK, so (quickly!) you do additional damage if you roll a 20 (5%) and then hit again. So multiply my original figures by 1.05 for regular hits, 1.10 for the flurry -- up until a natural 20 is required to hit. This change does have a slight effect; 19 is now very slightly better without the flurry as well. Here are the examples:
Need 18 to hit:
Regular = (105%) * (15% * 6.5) = 1.02 <- winner!
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 19 to hit:
Regular = (105%) * (10% * 6.5) = .68 <-winner
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65
Need 20 to hit:
Regular = 5% * 6.5 = .325
Flurry = (2 * 5%) * 6.5 = .65 <- winner!
Hopefully, my math is correct and complete at this point. And clear as well! ;-)
I haven't had much experience with Monks. But I know they tend to die a lot.Shin Okada said:
I think the solution is to focus on scouting and support rather than damage dealing.
Race: Human
For the feat and skill points.
Stats:
Str 10 2
Dex 16 10
Con 14 6
Int 12 4
Wis 16 10
Cha 8 0
Monks need to be alive more than they need to deal damage.
Feats: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Improved Disarm ++.
Move in with Spring Attack, whack the bad guy with Stunning Fist (or steal his weapon), and move away...
Mustrum_Ridcully said:Even with 32 point-buy, I suggest not to go for a single high stat.
Strength is most important for melee combat - don`t waste a feat for weapon finese. High Strength will mean good hit chance and much damage, and it will help you at early level as well as at later levels.
Something like:
Str15 (8 pints)
Dex15(8 points)
Con 14 (6 points)
Int12 (4 points)
Wis 14 (6 points)
Cha8 (0 points)
... seems a good idea. Maybe get a fewer odd scores (but I think waiting until level 4 for at least one bonus should be fine with everyone. Maybe reduce Dex by 1 and add the points to Int)
Dexterity is important for many skills. Wisdom is only useful for the Monk AC Bonus (and roleplaying wise, it makes sense
Be sure to get the Diplomacy skill to compensate for your bad charisma score, at least if you want to be useful outside of combat.
<snip>
If you have a Druid in the group (and expect him to stay longer
My Monk just picked up Expertise at 6th level, and I haven't gotten a chance to play a combat since. But I know there have been many times in the past few levels where I've wished I had Expertise ... Int 13 is an important prereq for a combat Monk, I think.
Oh yeah-make friends with the Druid. Barkskin, Magic Fang ... I haven't yet been able to convince our party's 6th level Druid to prepare Greater Magic Fang with any of her scarce 3rd level slots. If I can just get her to do it once ... 3 attacks per round in a flurry, doing 1d8 + 5 damage each (with my monk's 17 Strength), will make a much more convincing argument in practice than it sounds like in theory ... and the extra +2 to hit will make those attacks hit much more often (effectively eliminating the attack penalty for the flurry).
