What is the best way to create effective Monk only with core rules?

[Christian]

????? I'm afraid I don't understand how you derived this bit? (not doubting you, just don't understand it). In the example you give (two attacks, both hitting on a 17) I'm sure that the chance of -at least one- hitting is 36%. (I wonder if we are talking at slightly cross purposes? In order to get the "average number of attacks", are you effectively adding in the attack "twice" in the circumstance where both hit? Although that would apparently count for the "missing 4%" between our two expectations, I don't think that is right... but I guess I'm probably talking about the "probability at this point", while you are talking about the "effective average over a long period of time" ??

Anyhow, as I mention at the end of my post, the issue *isn't* average damage - which is rarely important to know because of the significance of all the other variables - but how likely you are to get at least one hit in (which as you note at one point is sometimes the critical issue - if the target is on his last legs, with only a couple of hit points left, for instance).

Yes, I guess we were. Both the table in S&F and I were, in fact, talking about average damage per round (= average number of hits per round * average damage per hit). I'd question whether this is 'rarely important to know', as most D&D combats (especially involving monks) are likely to drag on for at least a few rounds. For example, in the situation above where the monk needed a 17 to hit with his two flurry attacks, he would need a 15 to hit with his one normal attack. Presuming a <4th level monk with a 14 strength, he'll be doing 1d6 + 2 or an average of 5.5 damage per hit. This works out to an average of 1.75 per round without the flurry, or 2.2 per round when flurrying. This is a much more significant difference than the .36 chance of hitting at least once in a given round with the flurry vs. the .3 chance of hitting at least once with the single attack. Especially if the target has at least ~6 hit points, where you can't expect to take it down with a single hit ...

Your method of calculation is correct for determining the chance of 'at least one hit', which (as I mentioned above) is another interesting piece of information. But I'd question whether it's more important information than 'average total damage' in most cases.

 

[Christian]

Strength, however, is clearly the most important stat, when you want a fighting monk!

Gee, I guess we've kind of been hijacking this thread with debates about the minutiae of probability theory. Just to bring it back on topic-Thanee summed it up quite succinctly here. Focus on Strength and flurry whenever you get a full attack to maximize the effect of your Strength. My Monk PC started with 16 Strength at first level, I pumped it to 17 at fourth and plan to pump it to 18 at eighth. There's just no question-if you're going to be a primary fighter (as my Monk is, unfortunately, in our party), there's no more important stat.

My character has poor AC and hit points compared to an armored fighting class. But man, can he pump out the damage. The other players and the DM have been shocked at times at the sheer destruction he produces with a few good rolls. And we haven't had a combat since he hit 6th level yet. Three attacks now with a flurry => potential 3d8+9 damage per round. More with Bull's Strength and Greater Magic Fang. Say, 3d8+21. Bwah-hah-hah!

Oh yeah, and try to get the cleric or wizard to prepare Bull's Strength, and the druid to prepare (Greater) Magic Fang.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think we are in agreement then !

Explaining something behind my chain of thought... I guess that one of the issues which gets hidden by average damage calculations is that it hides the extremes. I've seen people talk on these boards about Barbarians only having on average 2hp more per level than clerics - but their bigger HD means that they *could* have 4hp more per level.

Or a more direct example. I've seen people (rightly) portray the average damage from a greatsword and a greataxe to be broadly the same, even taking criticals into account - but that very thing doesn't take the potential maximum damage into account. Your PC with 30 hit points will not be killed by one hit from a greatsword, even on a critical. He could be killed by one swing from a greataxe. Even the fact that a greataxe has a 1 in 12 chance of scoring 12 damage on a standard blow while a greatsword only has a 1 in 36 chance can be hidden by "average damage"

Most melee combats that I DM run between 3-8 rounds, rarely any longer... over that short duration randomness "overcomes" the averages, as it were. Over the life of a campaign this wouldn't be true, but in any individual encounter...

That's where I'm coming from, I reckon. Where am I going to? Well, that has yet to be decided

Cheers

 

[Pielorinho]

We have a supereffective rogue/monk in our game, and his strategy is to be a defense monkey.

He's currently a rog3/monk6 and is an elf with a 20 dex and a 16 wis (thanks to a periapt of wisdom). The sorcerer casts mage armor and cat's grace on him each day, and the druid casts barkskin on him, and then we set him free to do the damage. Against his chosen dodgepartner, he's normally got an AC of 29-30.

Last night, we had just the druid and the monk fighting two nasty troll/halfdragons, and the druid's main contribution to the battle was to give the monk a flanking partner. The monk was able to flurry-of-blows the trolls for three sneak-attacks per round, thanks to flanking; thanks to his ridiculous armor class, the trolls only hit him once during the battle.

Monks really, really benefit from spellcasters. If you can get folks to cast defensive spells on you, and if you can take a few levels of rogue, going the dodge-monkey path might be very worthwhile.

Daniel

 

[smetzger]

I wonder how it would work out playing a LN druid-monk? From a RP angle he could be an interesting "one with nature" guy, from a metagaming angle it would be great to get that Magic Fang spell Shillelagh isn't too shabby either

Problem is everytime you hit with your Unarmed Strike you would lose your Druid powers for a day. Darn oaths.

 

[Pielorinho]

Problem is everytime you hit with your Unarmed Strike you would lose your Druid powers for a day. Darn oaths.

My favorite example of oath silliness:

Jerry the druid is being chased by a scary ettin, so he changes into a gibbon and races up the nearest tree. The ettin, unable to reach him, roars impotently at him from the ground.

Caught up in his monkeyness, the druid screeches tauntingly and flings a handful of feces at the ettin.

Unfortunately, his vows do not allow the use of feces as a weapon. Suddenly losing his druid powers, Jerry changes back into a human and falls from the tree, into the ettin's waiting hands.

Considering that the druid's vows don't allow him to use fang or claw if read strictly, I think it's reasonable to opt for a generous interpretation.

Daniel

 

[Shin Okada]

Problem is everytime you hit with your Unarmed Strike you would lose your Druid powers for a day. Darn oaths.

That should not be true. Do you think everytime a shape-shifted druid bite or claw something they lose druidic powers?

 

[Zog]

It is really a question of the game style, I think....

Lots of straight forward combat - a high str monk is obviously needed. But if you will be doing more scouting/stealth work - dex is key.

And no one has mentioned my personal favorite- the halfling monk!

A 20 dex and weapon finesse goes a looooong way. +6 to hit? (5 from dex, 1 from size) An extra 1 to your AC - 16, before the wisdom. And all of the halfling bonus skills help monks directly. Jump, climb, listen?

Add 1 level of rogue (start as rogue) and you have sneak attacks to help offset your lower damage. Amazing reflex saves - +8 at level 2! And your damage will improve, as will your speed. Eventually, you will become a halfling who deals d10+ damage, moves at 40+ per round, and can leap smal buildings in a single bound.

I played just such a character - and was quite affective. The party did not have a straight fighter - but my character and the paladin were frequently competing for kills. The best part is that Every level is a Major improvement. It is not the ultimate combo, or a super combat character. But you will hit almost as often as the fighters, dealing less damage. But you will have great skills at hide, listen, tumble, jump, etc. And in a pinch can open locks, find traps, etc.

Just had to make a pitch for my personal favorite 3e character thus far.

 

[Christian]

Re: It is really a question of the game style, I think....

Add 1 level of rogue (start as rogue) and you have sneak attacks to help offset your lower damage. Amazing reflex saves - +8 at level 2!

True-a very effective race/multiclass combo. I do need to take issue with the +8 Reflex save as a halfling Rog1/Mnk1 with 20 Dex. That should be +2 (Rogue) +2 (Monk) +5 (Dex) +1 (racial-halflings get +1 to all saves) = +10. (!!! I think I need to go lie down ...)

Although, come to think of it, a Halfling Paladin with 20 Dex and 18 Charisma would have a +10 at first level. So .

 

[Shin Okada]

Problem of Finesse type monk

The problem is, I will start the character from the 1st-level. So until I hit the 3rd-level, I cannot take Weapon Finesse feat.