What is the best way to create effective Monk only with core rules?

Re: Problem of Finesse type monk

Shin Okada said:
The problem is, I will start the character from the 1st-level. So until I hit the 3rd-level, I cannot take Weapon Finesse feat.

If you wanna go the finesse route, I recommend taking one or three levels of rogue before abandoning your lawless ways for the discipline of monkness. A finesse fighter will probably have a low strength; the sneak attack damage will help offset this, and the skill points can go into tumble and other lovely skills.

Daniel
 

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Whats the best you can do, with a monk(With 1 level of rogue, no unarmed attack(taken as feat first level) No stunning fist and no Deflect arrow, with divine grace, lay on hands, and Aura of courage.) also an aasimar. No I won't Change him.

We'll need a bit more info thatn that. It sounds more like a rogue / paladin than a monk. What level do you want him at? Are you allowed any items? etc.
 

Shin-

I disagree with the people who suggest starting with fighter and multiclassing into monk, for one simple reason: You'll be sacrificing eight skill points, and the points you do get will need to be dropped into less-useful skills (although fighters do get Jump and Climb, which are potentially useful for monks).

I also disagree with multiclassing with a level or two of sorcerer; I'd rather have a level or two of wizard or cleric, because it matches the monk's ability scores more closely. If you think wizard is a little out of character for a monk, just imagine him with a sacred scroll instead of a spellbook, which he 'studies to obtain wisdom' at the start of each day, and for his spells he chants and performs bits of kata (like the monks in 3x3 Eyes).

The Monk, probably more than any other class, is hard to play at low levels, but at higher levels they really start to shine. You're in better shape than most monks ought to be though, because high point-buy favors classes that benefit most from high ability scores.

Here's my favorite kind of monk to play:

Human. Extra feat, yum! Extra skill points are great! This character gets seven skill points per level!

Feats: Dodge, Mobility. I'd skip Expertise, because when you have many ranks in Tumble you can Fight Defensively almost as effectively. (Normally Fight Defensively is -4 to hit for +2 to AC, but with many ranks in Tumble, it improves to -4/+3.) Alertness is a great choice at 3rd level, as is Improved Initiative. Also, Weapon Finesse is great for some monks, but not a good idea for this monk.

Skills to focus on: Tumble, Move Silently, Hide, Diplomacy, Listen, a little Spot, Jump, and a little Knowledge (Arcana). (Notice that Diplomacy and Knowledge (Arcana) are both a class skill for monks. This is very useful in many roleplaying situations, and often ignored.) Also, a piece of advice for higher-level play: Once you've got 10 ranks in a skill, you can probably spend a few levels on some other skill and not sacrifice too much.

Here's how I would assign ability scores:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 8

I purposely sacrificed a high dexterity for the sake of other abilities, because in general I believe that you should not have to compete with the fighter in terms of armor class . . . If you really min/maxed you could do it, but you'd have to make big sacrifces. This monk will need to be careful, but wariness is a sign of enlightenment, grasshopper. A high armor class will come with time. Have patience! :P

Anyway, this monk is almost a replacement for a rogue in a typical D&D party. That's why I love monks! Played one way, they can replace fighters, but played another, they can replace rogues or to some extent bards.

Don't let these folks kid you too much. Monks can arrange their abilities almost however they like and still reap big benefits. If you have a lot of strength, your combat pays off. Dex and wis are obvious. Con makes many hit points and great Fort saves. Int will give you skill points.

Anyway, there's my two cents.

Matane!

-S
 

> But for race selection, no-one suggest Dwarf. Having
> slow movement is that bad for a monk?

I think slow movement is a detriment, but its not fatal. (Certainly Spring Attack loses some of its charm if you can only move 40' at level 9.) If your job is to Tumble through enemy lines to pick off spellcasters or to move around to take advantage of Flanking opportunities, then good foot-speed is very useful.

I think its important to reiterate that Monks dont want to go head-to-head with big, angry creatures; they want to pick their opportunities carefully.

For comparison, our Half-Orc Barbarian is +11 to hit and does d12+7 damage. He has 55 HP and 17 AC. At the same level, I have +5 to hit and do d8+2 with 37 HP and 18 AC. Obviously, he is a tank and would slaughter me in hand-to-hand. There are two points here 1) the Monk is not a primary front-line fighter, 2) a lot of basic monsters (like Ogres and Trolls) are built like Barbarians and will similarly rip a Monk to shreds.

So, if I am going to contribute to combat, its going to be by being tactical - which means being able to pick my fight - which means having speed.

> Second. For multi-classing, how do you think about
> Druid 1/Monk X?

Its an interesting idea, but I think its kind of redundant to build your character up in this way, especially if you are just doing it to get Magic Fang. (Magic Fang is only +1/+1, it wont last in the long run.)

My point here is that a multi-class has to have really good synergy to make sense from a min/max point of view. Otherwise its easier to just ask the Druid or Sorcerer to cast for you. From a fun point of view the Druid/Monk might be really cool though. Imagine fighting using the Drunken Monkey style while having an actual Drunken Monkey as your Animal Companion! ;-)
 

Shin Okada said:
Second. For multi-classing, how do you think about Druid 1/Monk X? (I can start from 1st-level multiclass by using apprentice-level rules). That way I can buy and use druidic magic items such as Wand of Barkskin or Wand of Greater Magic Fang (in future). Is Sorcerer 1/Monk 1 better than this?
Neither are terribly good combinations, as you lose too much for too little benefit. However, Monk 1 / Druid X can be great, giving the druid Wis bonus to AC and evasion in animal form, some stealth and perception skills, a bonus feat (if OA is used), and flurry of blows to use with a Shilleilagh or a quarterstaff with Spikes cast on it.
 

My personal list of favorite feats for a monk consists of the following:

Expert Tactician
Improved Trip (Automatically gained)
Knockdown
Prone Attack
Stand-up Attack (? The one from S&F that lets you stand up after a successful melee attack)


You can use Stunning Attack to get extra attacks, via Expert Tactician.

You can use regular attacks to induce Trip attacks, via Knockdown, which in turn grant you extra attacks, via Improved Trip.

If you are tripped in your own trip attempt, you can use the combination of Prone Attack and Stand-Up attack to get back on your feet at no penalty.

A 10th level monk with a BAB of +7/+4/+1 can easily get 5 attacks in a single round using these feats.
 

Schmoe said:


You can use regular attacks to induce Trip attacks, via Knockdown, which in turn grant you extra attacks, via Improved Trip.


I'm afraid you cannot get the improved trip when using Knockdown. (see DnD FAQ)
 

Schmoe said:

You can use Stunning Attack to get extra attacks, via Expert Tactician.

Yep. I have this. I need to remeber to use it more though. Often I forget to take the extra attack.

Schmoe said:

You can use regular attacks to induce Trip attacks, via Knockdown, which in turn grant you extra attacks, via Improved Trip.

You don't get the free attack from Improved Trip after knocking them down with the Knockdown feat.

However, if you do want to hurt them for free when tripping, geat the Great Throw feat from OA. It lets you make a trip attack that, if it succeeds, lets you throw them to the ground anywhere in your threatened area and it does your unarmed damage when they fall.

Hint: They accidently left out the description of the feat in the OA book. You can get it from the WoTC website.

Schmoe said:

If you are tripped in your own trip attempt, you can use the combination of Prone Attack and Stand-Up attack to get back on your feet at no penalty.

Prone Attack already lets you stand up if you hit. There is no "Stand-Up Attack" feat. The Prone Attack feat lets you do all of that in one. But don't forget the Lightning Reflexes prereq.
 

Corwin said:

You don't get the free attack from Improved Trip after knocking them down with the Knockdown feat.

Hmm, it seems I haven't read the FAQ or errata lately. Too bad.


Prone Attack already lets you stand up if you hit. There is no "Stand-Up Attack" feat. The Prone Attack feat lets you do all of that in one. But don't forget the Lightning Reflexes prereq.

Doh! That explains why I couldn't remember the name of the feat. Sorry about the confusion, it's been a little while since I made that monk...

Still, Improved Trip + Prone Attack is a very nice combination.
 
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