What is "The Forge?"

[pogre]

Does the term "The Big Model" make anybody else giggle?

The folks over at The Forge always reminded me of us football coaches - "Smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enouygh to think it's important."

 

[Aaron L]

Wow. Is it just me, or is everyone in that thread just taking everything that everyone else says as a direct insult to themselves wihtout real basis?

 

[fafhrd]

Maybe the comments in this thread prejudiced me, but the impression gained in my (admittedly brief) foray was baloney firmly ensconced in a layer of meta-baloney.

 

[Wil]

My experience with Forgeites comes from several discussions I participated in regarding using Object Oriented Programming principles in RPG design. Basically, a few obvious Forgeites came pimping their favorite Forge system (it may have been The Burning Wheel, but I don't remember) as "OOP". When pressed as to what made it object oriented, they gave extremely weak responses similar to, "It has objects in the game...that you do stuff with...it just is, okay? It can do anything! Believe me! They'll kiiiiiillll me if you don't!!!!111!One!" (well, I made up the last part). It was actually implied that because I couldn't see the OOP aspect of the game that they were pimping, that I was just not astute enough.

With that being said, I have read some very interesting discussions on the Forge and gleaned some useful tidbits for running and designing games. I don't completely "subscribe to their newsletter", as it were, and I think the good and bad about even out in the end.

 

[Aaron L]

Disturbingly enough, after having just finished reading through that entire thread, I still have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

 

[jdrakeh]

I've been lurking around the Forge for a while now and haven't seen this sort of behaviour.

Well, to be fair, most of the outright sniping occurs on other forums (see the RPGnet thread that I linked to for an example of Forge SOP). On the actual Forge forums, if somebody disagrees with and/or questions prevalent theory, they'll simply get shut down with a flurry of 'you don't get it' responses, after which they'll either be asked to leave the forums or dismissed as useless and ignored (I left of my own accord, but I personally know several people who were either asked to leave or shutdown in this manner). If you only lurk at The Forge, you can largely avoid this.

So, what about The Big Model? Well, like the GNS theory previously held out by The Forge as the sole unifying theory of design, it's nothing but a collection of nebulous, poorly-defined, jargon presented in a purely subjective manner with little (if any) empirical evidence to back it up. In short, The Big Model is our hobby's equivelent of Dianetics (i.e., it's an ideaology created from whole cloth specifically to support a certain outlook in the absence of actual facts). It's arguably the least valuable thing on the whole Forge site.

Now, as I said - there are some good games that have come out of the Forge. There is also some stuff there worth discussing elsewhere. I'd be lying if I said that the Forge hadn't influenced my play style or preference in games, but I don't blindly embrace their philosophy at the expense of all others, nor am I ready to recgonize them as the sole driving force behind RPGs, regardless of how hard they push for that (and they do push awfully hard for that, as evidenced by one of the founder's remarks in the RPGnet thread).

 

[LostSoul]

On the actual Forge forums, if somebody disagrees with and/or questions prevalent theory, they'll simply get shut down with a flurry of 'you don't get it' responses, after which they'll either be asked to leave the forums or dismissed as useless (I left of my own accord, but I personally know several people who were either asked to leave or shutdown in this manner).

I have seen some of that. Since I am in "what the hell is all this?" mode, I can't say if that's true or not - that they just don't get it. So, you know, either way.

Well, like the GNS theory previously held out by The Forge as the sole unifying theory of design, it's nothing but a collection of nebulous, poorly-defined, jargon presented in a purely subjective manner with little (if any) empirical evidence to back it up.

I guess we disagree here; I think I understand it and can apply it to my games. Although I don't think it is "the sole unifying theory of design". But it works for me, so far at least, and I don't really care about anything/anyone else. (I am a bastard! )

nor am I ready to recgonize them as the sole driving force behind RPGs regardless of how hard they push for that (and they do push awfully hard for that, as evidenced by one of the founder's remarks in the RPGnet thread).

Yeah, that was nuts. Although to me it seemed like a troll. But I'm not so familiar with these guys yet so I could be wrong. (Benefit of the doubt phase still.) Although... I could see it in the case of "the Forge was influenced by this, which also influenced these things". But that's a pretty generous interpretation.

So you see where I'm coming from, I guess. The Forge (and its theory) helped me out I get defensive when people say negative things about it.

 

[jdrakeh]

Disturbingly enough, after having just finished reading through that entire thread, I still have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

That's because you don't get it! (joking!)

Seriously, that's the magic of communicating almost entirely in an invented language (i.e., jargon) - only the people who invented it 'get it' and, thus, can use the failure of an uninitiated individual to understand it as an excuse to dismiss them as inferior. Jargon has never been coined to inform or convey thought, but to foster an appearance of importance and facilitate the illusion of social superiority. This is one of several reasons why I openly oppose the use of jargon where plain language will suffice.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yeah, that was nuts. Although to me it seemed like a troll.

It (sadly) wasn't a troll. Here's some context - Clinton Nixon (the guy claiming that The Forge has heavily influenced every RPG designed in the past five years, except for the ones that suck) is the co-founder of The Forge and a forum administrator there, while 'abzu' is Luke Crane, the creator of The Burning Wheel (last year's Forge 'darling' RPG) and longtime Forge contributor.

So you see where I'm coming from, I guess. The Forge (and its theory) helped me out I get defensive when people say negative things about it.

Sure. I'm not saying that people shouldn't visit The Forge or buy into its theory (that choice is up to every individual to make), but I am saying that I don't visit The Forge or buy into its theory. I did both of these things at one time, but when I started expanding my worldview instead of narrowing it (as the Forge suggests one do), a lot of the theory and design principle being discussed there no longer made any kind of sense to me.

 

[mythusmage]

Abzu (to use his nom de Internet) is a case of somebody coming up with a good game despite his favorite hypothesis.

(Nota Bene: I use 'hypothesis" and "theory" in their scientific meaning, instead of their academic.)