What is "The Forge?"

[LostSoul]

I have a hard time believing that you honestly mean that, as you've already admitted that reading several Forge essays is a requirement to interpret the phrase as you have.

I do honestly mean that; it just seems obvious to me. But I see your point. (And while I've read up on this and that, I don't think I've really changed my interpretation since the first time I read the original Story Now essay. I may have had some questions answered, but what I understood Narrativism as when I read that is the same as it is today. As far as I am aware. )

Ron, Clinton, Vincent, and Yourself all provide a different answer to the question insofar as qualifiers are concerned:

Interesting analysis. For me, all those definitions seem pretty much the same. Your points seem, to me, like nitpicks. Whether or not they are nitpicks, I'll leave to others to decide for themselves (as my own view is coloured). As to whether or not I see these definitions as the same because I'm firmly attached to my own definition and I see other, different definitions as validating my own - that could be the case. But I'm okay with it, it works for me.

I guess I just don't see the fundamental conflict between the various definitions.

I don't think that my definition is narrow. Sometimes it seems that way to me, but then I remember it's as broad as the human condition.

It would be cool if we could sit down together and play some games where I tried to facilitate one of the Creative Agendas. "Today I'll try to facilitate narrativist play; tomorrow it's gamism, and then simulationism." That would probably be a better way for us to understand each other. And fun, too.

 

[mcrow]

after reading that thread and observing some the forgites I will not be buying products made by some of them anymore. Not that there are so many "big hit" RPG to come out of these guys anyway or any that I really like. I can't support games who have developers that are so sphincteric. It's the same reason I don't buy White Wolf stuff.

 

[Wil]

after reading that thread and observing some the forgites I will not be buying products made by some of them anymore. Not that there are so many "big hit" RPG to come out of these guys anyway or any that I really like. I can't support games who have developers that are so sphincteric. It's the same reason I don't buy White Wolf stuff.

Yeah, because we know that Rebecca Bergstrom is so pretentious. I mean, she's always trying to push her style of play on everyone else, and overreacts whenever anybody says anything negative about her!

That was sarcasm, by the way...while I may not be fond of all of the people who work for WW (and I only play Exalted), there are quite a few - Geoffrey C. Grabowski (and I know I just mangled his name) RGB, Phillipe Boulle, and a couple of others - that are top notch.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Yeah, because we know that Rebecca Bergstrom is so pretentious...

That was sarcasm, by the way...

Her body of work comes across as pretentious (in the "arsty-fartsy" deeper-than-thou sense)

Nobilis lost me, IOSHI failed to change my mind, Exalted: The Fair Folk was more of the same...

I don't think that--given that you don't think it's pretentious stuff--that using "we know Rebecca Borgstrom is so pretentious" is that great of an opening sally for you

 

[jdrakeh]

I do honestly mean that; it just seems obvious to me.

Yes - but only, by your own admission earlier in this thread, after reading related material (the Story Now, essay in particular). You couldn't and, more importantly, didn't reach the understanding that you did by reading Vincent's definition alone, but by reading Ron's essay and examining Vincent's extremely vague definition in that context

I may have had some questions answered, but what I understood Narrativism as when I read that is the same as it is today. As far as I am aware. )

I am convinced of your belief that this is true, but your inability to explain Vincent's definition without referencing an entirely different definition fails to convince me that it is true

But I'm okay with it, it works for me.

Well, as I said, belief is a personal choice. If you choose to believe in what the Forge offers, that's ultimately your call. I really don't think that we have much else to discuss, though - we understand each other perfectly, we merely disagree vehemently

 

[mcrow]

Yeah, because we know that Rebecca Bergstrom is so pretentious. I mean, she's always trying to push her style of play on everyone else, and overreacts whenever anybody says anything negative about her!

That was sarcasm, by the way...while I may not be fond of all of the people who work for WW (and I only play Exalted), there are quite a few - Geoffrey C. Grabowski (and I know I just mangled his name) RGB, Phillipe Boulle, and a couple of others - that are top notch.

Yeah, I do realize that most of the folks @ WW are cool but the ones that get under my skin do it with such zeal that it ruins the whole thing for me.

 

[Wil]

Her body of work comes across as pretentious (in the "arsty-fartsy" deeper-than-thou sense)

Nobilis lost me, IOSHI failed to change my mind, Exalted: The Fair Folk was more of the same...

I don't think that--given that you don't think it's pretentious stuff--that using "we know Rebecca Borgstrom is so pretentious" is that great of an opening sally for you

That's all a matter of perspective (I happened to like E:tFF and I think Hitherby Dragons is entertaining, and I don't think of myself as an "artsy-fartsy" kind of person) - but mcrow's complaint seemed to be levelled at the people, not the products. With a few rare exceptions (and really only one I can think of readily) I have not interacted with anyone from WW who comes across in the same way that some Forgeites have - and that one person was just an ahole, pure and simple, and had nothing to do with any elitist attitude.

I've run into plentry of WoD players - particularly Mage - that I want to beat with a heavy object because of their elitist attitude, but I find that in virtually every subculture there's people I want to beat with a heavy object.

 

[mcrow]

That's all a matter of perspective (I happened to like E:tFF and I think Hitherby Dragons is entertaining, and I don't think of myself as an "artsy-fartsy" kind of person) - but mcrow's complaint seemed to be levelled at the people, not the products. With a few rare exceptions (and really only one I can think of readily) I have not interacted with anyone from WW who comes across in the same way that some Forgeites have - and that one person was just an ahole, pure and simple, and had nothing to do with any elitist attitude.

I've run into plentry of WoD players - particularly Mage - that I want to beat with a heavy object because of their elitist attitude, but I find that in virtually every subculture there's people I want to beat with a heavy object.

Yes, there only a few WW people who I don't like, but part of what boils my blood is noone did anything about it. One employee who (I think we all know who I'm refering to) would go spouting off on mesage boards insulting all comers and noone @ WW said or did anything about it. I just expect a little professionalism in publishers than that. It someone says they don't like your game don't get on the boards and trash them whether they have valid points or not, or if they insulted you first. publishers should take the high road knowing that there will bill critics. So to me it reflects on how they do business and how they view their fans.

 

[Wil]

Yes, there only a few WW people who I don't like, but part of what boils my blood is noone did anything about it. One employee who (I think we all know who I'm refering to) would go spouting off on mesage boards insulting all comers and noone @ WW said or did anything about it. I just expect a little professionalism in publishers than that. It someone says they don't like your game don't get on the boards and trash them whether they have valid points or not, or if they insulted you first. publishers should take the high road knowing that there will bill critics. So to me it reflects on how they do business and how they view their fans.

If it's who I think it is, that is a valid concern - but at least you admit that it can really be narrowed down to one bad apple and not the entire company (although the fact that this person is - or was? - on the frontline doesn't help a whole bunch).

 

[d20Dwarf]

and (2) based on his posts I came away with the impression that Mike Mearls was a supporter of the concepts espoused by The Forge - his comment on 4e Dungeons and Dragons was interesting.

If by "interesting" you mean "oh God don't let him near 4e" then I agree. Seriously, he seems to be one of the biggest Kool Aid drinkers there, and I really don't want D&D to be ruined by a "What is G/N/S?" section in the introduction to the 4e DMG. I mean, he came out and basically said that making games that people enjoy isn't as important as sitting around thinking about how The Big Model applies to people's experiences. This does not bode well!

The Forge is basically the apartment where RPG designer wannabes go to smoke pot and figure out how to save the world...then they wake up the next day and go man the register at Conoco so they can buy more pot. Thinking about something isn't nearly as valuable as doing it, otherwise gamers everywhere would get monthly checks from Hasbro just for thinking about ways to make a better game.

Even a lowly 1,000-selling RPG supplement reaches more people than the Forge, and based on their own thinking, is more influential (since rejection of a thought means it influenced you ).