D&D 5E What Is The Value of Stunning Strike?

[FrogReaver]

Stunning Strike is likely the defining aspect of the base monk class. The monk features support a skirmisher style - able to get to vulnerable targets. It's not a full striker/DPR as mechanically supported. When you pick targets, like enemy casters, with low CON, Monks become action denial specialists. While CON is one of the worst saves to go against, between choice of target and the unique ability to force multiple save-or-suck saves per round is quite powerful. That multiple-save-per-round is also great for doing things like draining Legendary saves from a big foe.

So you can't look at the value of a single Stunning Strike, but rather in being able to repeat it in the same round, like casting multiple spells, and how it makes all of the rest of your attacks that round and the next round with advantage. (Which also makes it easier to reapply.)

Each Stunning Strike is less powerful than a multi-target action denial like Fear or Hypnotic pattern, but is more powerful than a 1st level spell like Tasha's that doesn't contain the "keep repeating for each hit" and avoids the "attacks give another save" vulnerability. So I'd place it around a 2nd level spell in value. Which makes it quite worthwhile compared to other Ki costs.

(As a side note, the Four Elements monk is generally considered weak, and when you take that out of the equation Ki seems to be more valuable than 1 spell level per Ki.)

Hideous laughter as an example is stronger action denial than stunning strike on a per use basis. So Is command (flee).

Expeditious retreat, another first level spell can mimic most of the monks other uses of ki.

Shield spell is comparable enough to the bonus action dodge use of ki for the monk, except typically better because it’s a reaction.

Monks ki abilities are mostly equivalent or a little worse than first level spells.

 

[p_johnston]

Hideous laughter as an example is stronger action denial than stunning strike on a per use basis. So Is command (flee).

Expeditious retreat, another first level spell can mimic most of the monks other uses of ki.

Shield spell is comparable enough to the bonus action dodge use of ki for the monk, except typically better because it’s a reaction.

Monks ki abilities are mostly equivalent or a little worse than first level spells.

So worth noting that stunning strike is better then hideous laughter if for no other reason then you can't cast hideous laughter 4 times a turn. Stunning strike is a boss killer and legendary resistance eater, but that's about it.

 

[Undrave]

I don’t like Stunning Strike. I think it’s a bad feature and overrated.

I don’t like that it comes in so late despite being a signature ability (the Monk has this problem in general where it just keeps getting random abilities instead of improving what it already has which makes it feels random and disjointed.

And I’ve NEVER had it do anything.

You either face opponents who have great Constitution, monsters with Legendary resistance, or little weenies that you should rather be killing off quickly with your Flurry of Blows instead. At best it burns through a Resistance, at worse it flops and does nothing. There are very few situations that I could see where you CAN actually stun someone were you couldn’t just push yourself and knock them out in one turn instead. Basically, unless you’re using it to burn through legendary resistance it doesn’t actually advance the game state toward victory. In 4e terms, you only really want to use it again Elites, but not Minions, Standard or Solo monsters.

Then there’s the conflict with the other things you need Ki for. You need your Ki to boost your defense if you don’t want your little expedition behind enemy line ending with you getting dogpiled into oblivion, you need your Ki to have actually decent damage AND you often need your Ki to do ANYTHING cool your Subclass grant you. When are you going to cast a Ki Point spells if you spend all your Ki doing four Stunning Strikes in a turn?

The MAD nature of the Monk doesn’t help either.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Stunning Strike is likely the defining aspect of the base monk class. The monk features support a skirmisher style - able to get to vulnerable targets. It's not a full striker/DPR as mechanically supported. When you pick targets, like enemy casters, with low CON, Monks become action denial specialists. While CON is one of the worst saves to go against, between choice of target and the unique ability to force multiple save-or-suck saves per round is quite powerful. That multiple-save-per-round is also great for doing things like draining Legendary saves from a big foe.

So you can't look at the value of a single Stunning Strike, but rather in being able to repeat it in the same round, like casting multiple spells, and how it makes all of the rest of your attacks that round and the next round with advantage. (Which also makes it easier to reapply.)

Each Stunning Strike is less powerful than a multi-target action denial like Fear or Hypnotic pattern, but is more powerful than a 1st level spell like Tasha's that doesn't contain the "keep repeating for each hit" and avoids the "attacks give another save" vulnerability. So I'd place it around a 2nd level spell in value. Which makes it quite worthwhile compared to other Ki costs.

(As a side note, the Four Elements monk is generally considered weak, and when you take that out of the equation Ki seems to be more valuable than 1 spell level per Ki.)

This is exactly why I think the best way forward is to kill SS and replace it with multiple options that aren’t as likely to eat up all your monks ki.

(As a side note, I never use it on my monk, and I never regret it)

My Way of Mercy monk just hit 6th level, and one thing that I've noticed is that I actually have a choice to make now that I have a few other cool things to do with my ki points. Unfortunately, most monk subclasses lack options that compete with SS.

So the answer shouldn't be to limit SS and make monk, already widely considered a weak class, worse. It has to be a multi-part solution: nerf SS and add more good options to the base class.

Sure. That’s the idea.

Hideous laughter as an example is stronger action denial than stunning strike on a per use basis. So Is command (flee).

Expeditious retreat, another first level spell can mimic most of the monks other uses of ki.

Shield spell is comparable enough to the bonus action dodge use of ki for the monk, except typically better because it’s a reaction.

Monks ki abilities are mostly equivalent or a little worse than first level spells.

Only in a “white room”, IMO.

Expeditious retreat and longstrider are kinda similar to step of the wind, except ER is concentration, and Longstrider doesn’t scale up, where SoTW scales for free, and adds in Jump as a bonus.

Step of The Wind does 3 spells, can’t be countered, scales with class levels, all for a bonus action and 1 ki.

Hideous Laughter gives a save opportunity every time the target is hit, is concentration, and is one chance of landing per round. At best it’s as good.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Stunning Strike is a high-value ability, easily one of the best for Monks. However, it is limited by ki use (which often contends with other things) and 1 ki per hit is decently expensive, and the "bigger baddies" usually have decent CON's, so a reasonable chance of saving.

Now, when it really becomes an issue is with multiple monks... We did an "all monk" game, and when you have 3 or more monks all doing stunning strikes, it is likely the target is going to fail against on of them. It can certainly be a very big game changer!

 

[FrogReaver]

Only in a “white room”, IMO.

Expeditious retreat and longstrider are kinda similar to step of the wind, except ER is concentration, and Longstrider doesn’t scale up, where SoTW scales for free, and adds in Jump as a bonus.

More importantly Expeditious retreat can provide up to 10 bonus actions for dash/disengage. Typically it will provide 3-4. Step of the Wind provides 1. It’s a lot better than step of the wind on a per resource basis.

Hideous Laughter gives a save opportunity every time the target is hit, is concentration, and is one chance of landing per round. At best it’s as good.

Hideous Laughter will prevent about 1.3 enemy turns on average. Command flee (no concentration) will often prevent 1.2. Stunning strike will prevent about .6 (higher level its more like .3)

Monk abilities are most comparable to level 1 spells and outside stunning strike are likely weaker than most. There’s some slight situational differences of course.

The saving grace is the monk gets a crap ton of ki and can still attack while using his abilities.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Monk abilities are most comparable to level 1 spells and outside stunning strike are likely weaker than most. There’s some slight situational differences of course.

I don't think you've really demonstrated that, and I'd love you to show your working for the above numerical claims (I'm not saying you're lying but I am curious as to what the basis is). Also, as people keep pointing out, you're not limited to 1/turn with Stunning Strike. That's not a slight situational difference, that's a huge functional difference.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't think you've really demonstrated that, and I'd love you to show your working for the above numerical claims (I'm not saying you're lying but I am curious as to what the basis is). Also, as people keep pointing out, you're not limited to 1/turn with Stunning Strike. That's not a slight situational difference, that's a huge functional difference.

The OP spent a lot of time talking about the value of 1 KI and asked what is the value of 2 attacks and a chance of stun. Seems reasonable to take that as asking what is the value of 2 attacks and 1 ki spent to stunning strike. That is certainly the question I’ve been answering.

There’s also a reason I keep saying ‘on a per resource basis’

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The OP spent a lot of time talking about the value of 1 KI and asked what is the value of 2 attacks and a chance of stun. Seems reasonable to take that as asking what is the value of 2 attacks and 1 ki spent to stunning strike. That is certainly the question I’ve been answering.

There’s also a reason I keep saying ‘on a per resource basis’

Ok, it just seems like a really weird and lopsided comparison when you express it in the numerical way you did without accounting for how it actually functions.

There's a big chance with any of those spells that they simply don't land, whereas with Stunning Strike, as long as you have Ki and attacks, you can keep trying. It thus tends to be vastly more effective at nailing enemies right when they don't want to be nailed, which is why it's so well-regarded.

Stunning Strike also works on a ton of things that Tasha's or Command don't.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, it just seems like a really weird and lopsided comparison when you express it in the numerical way you did without accounting for how it actually functions.

There's a big chance with any of those spells that they simply don't land, whereas with Stunning Strike, as long as you have Ki and attacks, you can keep trying. It thus tends to be vastly more effective at nailing enemies right when they don't want to be nailed, which is why it's so well-regarded.

No need to worry about any of that if the primary question asked is about 2 attacks and 1 ki spent on stunning strike

Stunning Strike also works on a ton of things that Tasha's or Command don't.

Sure. Just Another fact that sounds important but doesn’t really change anything. You use abilities when they are effective. You aren’t spending a slot on command or Tasha’s if the enemy can’t be effected. Same on stunnning strike if the enemy cannot be stunned.