What is this I am hearing about PHB2/DMG2/MM2 being required?

[Li Shenron]

"Core" is what is pretty much necessary to play the game.

PHB, DMG, MM are necessary, hence they are core.

It doesn't really matter on top of what they slap the word "core"...

 

[BASHMAN]

To complete the title question:

What is this I am hearing about PHB2/DMG2/MM2 being additions to Core rules and being required? Am I getting bad info?

They are only required for half-orcs, druids, barbarians, sorcerers, bards, and monks. So only people who want to play those classes have to pay the ransom.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

"Core" is what is pretty much necessary to play the game.

PHB, DMG, MM are necessary, hence they are core.

It doesn't really matter on top of what they slap the word "core"...

Wizard's uses "core" to describe the non-setting specific D&D books (i.e. not Forgotten Realms or Eberron) though, and have for a long time now, as someone mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Think about it: How can the books be required to play D&D? If they were required, that would mean you can't play D&D with the first 3 core rulebooks - how could that even work? Do they put only half the combat rules in the game?

The 4E "Core" as defined by WotC means that all books labelled core can serve as base for further supplements, adventures or settings. This means there is good chance you will see equivalent of splat books for core classes both from the PHB I and PHB II, and the elements introduced there will be seen in later books.

Interesting question is whether one can play D&D with only one of the set of books. (Which would mean an awful lot of reprinting, which I am not really interested in...)

There will, off course, always be a non-WotC definition of "core". And that will be the first 3 core rulebooks. PHB 1, DMG 1, MM 1.

There is also a third definition: Everything WotC puts out is core. Sometimes limited to non-setting material.

I think these are 3 most important definitions in the context of 4E. WotC "core rule book" policy is more or less new for 4E, and it will probably change what we can expect from supplements. If/When the GSL/OGL for 4E will come, it might also define what third-parties will be able to reuse in that context.

Perhaps we need to establish a tiered-core system:

A-core is of course the PHB1, MM1, DMG1.

B-core is for future PHBs, MMs, and DMGs.

C-core is for DDI-released info, like the bard.

D-core is for supplimental generic setting products (Martial Power, Draconomicon I, etc)

F-core is for stuff released in setting specific books that is really more generic, like drow racial feats or the Swordmage.

Swap around C and D as you like.

Wouldn't Core 1 to n not suffice? PHB I, MM1, DMG 1 to PHB n, DMG n, MM n?
And the rest is either
- setting material
- generic supplement

 

[Dark080matter]

So, lets say in the 3e Complete Pancake they create the Arcane Griddler class. There might be some Arcane Griddler specific feats in the Complete Pancake, and you might get an Arcane Griddler article in Dragon Magazine, but for the most part after the publication of Complete Pancake you'd never see another bit of material for the Arcane Griddler again.* The assumption was that most people didn't have the Complete Pancake, so material for the Arcane Griddler would be useless to them, and material that incorporated the Arcane Griddler would be difficult to use.

It's 7:30 am, and I could really use a Complete Pancake right now. Alas, it seems I failed to choose the Arcane Griddler paragon path (ParP) in lieu of the poorly-optimized Omeletmancer. Looks like I'm SOL on that until I retrain.

On an entirely unrelated note, in PHB2 we may well see full race write-ups of a number of races that appeared in the MM1 as "monster races." Examples include Warforged, Shifters, Hobgoblins (?), and Gnomes (as has been mentioned). We know that Warforged are getting an early DDI update to improve on their MM options, but it would seem to make sense that the PHB2 would include the full collated write-ups of races like this, especially cuz it would a.) introduce bits of the Eberron setting to 'mainstream' players and thus advertise for the Eberron Campaign Setting that same year, and B.) free up space in ECS for more awesome goodies.

And if the Psionics power source is introduced (as seems highly likely) then that opens up an even wider range of potential races, including Kalashtar (Eberron again), Elans, Thri-Keen, the cute little bug guys, etc.

So they could easily match the 8 races in PHB1 with all this available material, and I have a feeling that future PHBs will in fact have about as many new races and Classes as the original (8 and 8), certainly more than just 3 or 4 at any rate. And of course Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, Magic Items, Feats and such-like. At any rate it's not like they have to reprint the basic combat/skill rules... I assume.

Now, what might be found in DMG2 and above? That's a much more interesting question I cannot begin to speculate upon.

 

[Wolfspider]

Of course they are required!

You MUST buy them, so start saving money now.

I suggest that you see if there is any place nearby that will purchase your blood plasma or spare organs for extra cash....

 

[FourthBear]

I'd imagine the primary issue that having such books be "core" is how elements from those books are referenced in future adventures and supplements. Dungeon magazine had a policy that any monsters or new classes introduced in books after the Big Three had all of their stat blocks and abilities reproduced fairly fully in the modules that used them. This tended to discourage adventure writers from using the monsters in the later MM books, since they would naturally eat up a lot more page count whenever they did so. As I recall, this was one of the reasons that fiends and dragons tended to take up so much of the high level Adventure Path modules. They could use fiends found in the MM with a one line page reference, but new monsters, monsters from MM2+ and other sources required those increasingly bloating stat blocks, eating up valuable page space.

It could be the practical outcome of this is that adventures, campaigns and the like for 4e might use very abbreviated summaries or simply page references for all books considered core. This would likely be accompanied with notes that any materials referenced not owned by the group in question should be substituted for a related game element.

 

[Dark080matter]

It could be the practical outcome of this is that adventures, campaigns and the like for 4e might use very abbreviated summaries or simply page references for all books considered core. This would likely be accompanied with notes that any materials referenced not owned by the group in question should be substituted for a related game element.

At the same time, at least Monster stat blocks (If you mean just the stats and not ecology, equipment, lifespan, and dining habits) are considerably more manageable this time around. Hopefully, we'll see more truly unique creatures in printed campaigns, that take advantage of the new ease of design and presentation of 4e Monsters.

 

[DonAdam]

DMGII will have Rule Zero in it, so if you want to make use of that you'll have to buy it.

 

[Morrus]

To complete the title question:

What is this I am hearing about PHB2/DMG2/MM2 being additions to Core rules and being required? Am I getting bad info?

Well, if they're "required" and they're not cmoing out until 2009, I guess the rulebooks coming out in 3 months will make nice doorstops for a year.