What is *worldbuilding* for?

No Economy and society? Where did you get that? It does seem to be a bit underpopulated though, the numbers cited in the various armies seem small!

Can a population as small as that build something like this?
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I've never seen castles like that anywhere in Europe, have you?

Just because they have a small standing army, doesn't mean that they have small populations. Also, that city wasn't built by Gondor. It was built by Numenoreans, who had superior technology and ability.
 

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And these plot points can be used later as in the iron spikes example. OK.

I can see how it works as a game system (gamist*) but find myself deal-breakingly disappointed in the realism (simulationist*) side of it.

* - words used in their common meaning as opposed to anything the Forge uses them for.

Now, see, I argue that 'Simulationism' isn't an agenda. All games are overwhelmingly gamist; they ARE games, and MUST practically bow to practical considerations. So any questions of what might be 'realistic' are largely moot. What is being served are 2 things, verisimilitude (which is a pure aesthetic agenda) and the ability of the players to reason about the narrative constraints which the current fictional positioning imposes on them (which is fundamentally a playability consideration, though it may be cast in aesthetic terms as well at times, in which case it is often confused with the previously mentioned verisimilitude).

In any case, I could even, ironically, make an argument for the 'realism' of the Cortex+ technique. On the whole players aren't that good at tracking their inventory of equipment. They are also quite likely to be biased in favor of having things when needed even at the expense of an accurate inventory. There is also a lot of gray area. Realistically what percentage of arrows would you be able to recover after a fight? How long would it take? How many times would they be usable before wearing out? I'm unaware of any RPG which has done the actual research which would be required to establish this (and I don't even think such research is feasible). Thus any values for inventory are effectively arbitrary gamist constructs to begin with. A lantern requires 1 pint of oil every 4 hours because Gary Gygax decided that was the right number to vex his players with a logistical challenge in 1974. I seriously question if this number is based in any sort of reality at all. I mean, it sounds plausible, but 1 hour and 12 hours also sound plausible!

Given the dubiousness of all these numbers, who says that the procedure of using plot points (probably along with some general consideration of how often the resource has been used) isn't AT LEAST as accurate in actual terms as the fairly arbitrary tracking you're espousing? I mean, I can't even come close to proving it is or it isn't, but neither can you! Thus I would claim that this ENTIRELY an aesthetic 'verisimilitude' type of question. This is also why I discount the very existence of 'simulationism' as a thing in RPGs.
 

Now, see, I argue that 'Simulationism' isn't an agenda. All games are overwhelmingly gamist; they ARE games, and MUST practically bow to practical considerations. So any questions of what might be 'realistic' are largely moot. What is being served are 2 things, verisimilitude (which is a pure aesthetic agenda) and the ability of the players to reason about the narrative constraints which the current fictional positioning imposes on them (which is fundamentally a playability consideration, though it may be cast in aesthetic terms as well at times, in which case it is often confused with the previously mentioned verisimilitude).

In any case, I could even, ironically, make an argument for the 'realism' of the Cortex+ technique. On the whole players aren't that good at tracking their inventory of equipment. They are also quite likely to be biased in favor of having things when needed even at the expense of an accurate inventory. There is also a lot of gray area. Realistically what percentage of arrows would you be able to recover after a fight? How long would it take? How many times would they be usable before wearing out? I'm unaware of any RPG which has done the actual research which would be required to establish this (and I don't even think such research is feasible). Thus any values for inventory are effectively arbitrary gamist constructs to begin with. A lantern requires 1 pint of oil every 4 hours because Gary Gygax decided that was the right number to vex his players with a logistical challenge in 1974. I seriously question if this number is based in any sort of reality at all. I mean, it sounds plausible, but 1 hour and 12 hours also sound plausible!

Given the dubiousness of all these numbers, who says that the procedure of using plot points (probably along with some general consideration of how often the resource has been used) isn't AT LEAST as accurate in actual terms as the fairly arbitrary tracking you're espousing? I mean, I can't even come close to proving it is or it isn't, but neither can you! Thus I would claim that this ENTIRELY an aesthetic 'verisimilitude' type of question. This is also why I discount the very existence of 'simulationism' as a thing in RPGs.

This argument is flawed, as simulationist games are not about being realistic(mirroring reality). Rather, they are about realism, which is a sliding scale with absolute chaos and no rules on one extreme, and absolute reality on the other end. On that scale, simulationist games are further towards the reality end of things, but aren't there and never will be. Story now is close to the chaos end of things. Standard D&D is in-between both.

Even within all of those styles, Simulationist, Story Now, and Standard D&D, each person will have their own personal preference on where on the realism scale they like things to be. It's best to find people with similar ranges of realism, so that things work smoothly.
 

This is incorrect. No agenda has to be established formally. All that is required are game choices to be made at each point in the process. Pippin arrives at Minis Tirith. Pippin through game play meets or does not meet Denethor. When invited, if the player does not want Pippin to meet Denethor, he may feign sickness. If he does, then he goes to meet Denethor. The next decision point is whether to swear fealty to Denethor when offered. When the pre-authored attack happens, Pippin's fealty is called upon. And so on at each point in the process. If the player makes certain decisions, it plays out as written in the books. If the player makes other decisions, it does not. At no point is any sort of agenda required for the result to be the same as it appears in the books. At no point does my style involve a railroad to get there.

I just showed you very clearly above how it is done. There was no force or story now method employed, and yet the same exact result can be accomplished with my playstyle.

No, because you aren't describing an actual feasible course of play! How would the GM in your "no formal agenda" play KNOW to offer the PC the chance to meet Denethor? For there to be an opening to swear fealty to Denethor and join the Tower Guard? It is entirely implausible to imagine that the GM would JUST HAPPEN to establish the entire list of 5 necessary narrative links which must be made in order for this drama to play out. This kind of thing virtually NEVER happens in 'classic' D&D play, not unless the players deliberately consult with each other and the GM and essentially don't play classic D&D! Even then, the GM's existing pre-established backstory is unlikely to be a positive asset in this process. Again, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s reference to a 'hard railroad' is apropos. The GM would have to have invented this story arc ahead of time himself and established all these points, AND THEN moved the PC through the narrative, either hoping the player takes the bait at every step, OR simply disallowing any alternatives (the hard railroad). Again, without the player having initiated and explicitly signaled this agenda it is very unlikely the player is going to just happen to go along, unprompted, with all the narrative choices that would be required.

So, in some totally theoretical sense it isn't IMPOSSIBLE that you could produce this narrative by your methods without an explicit agenda, it is just vanishingly unlikely. Now, you could argue that you will produce SOME SORT of narrative, and that whatever narrative it is, it is objectively unlikely apriori to have been predicted. It is equally unlikely to have been the one specifically chosen by the players, although they certainly may well reject many narrative possibilities they are UNINTERESTED in. Thus your method is sort of the 'negative-image' of what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s method is. His produces the narrative the players WANT, your's weeds out some narratives that they DON'T want.
 

No, because you aren't describing an actual feasible course of play! How would the GM in your "no formal agenda" play KNOW to offer the PC the chance to meet Denethor?

You don't have to know to offer the PC the chance to meet Denethor. It happens or doesn't. Not a single even in the chain or Pippin's growth requires a formal agenda.

For there to be an opening to swear fealty to Denethor and join the Tower Guard? It is entirely implausible to imagine that the GM would JUST HAPPEN to establish the entire list of 5 necessary narrative links which must be made in order for this drama to play out.

It's not any more implausible than any other chain of events that happens every single time I run a game. Character growth WILL HAPPEN due to events in my game. Those events will be a chain.

This kind of thing virtually NEVER happens in 'classic' D&D play, not unless the players deliberately consult with each other and the GM and essentially don't play classic D&D! Even then, the GM's existing pre-established backstory is unlikely to be a positive asset in this process.

That's just not true. Character growth arcs like that happen in virtually every game of classic D&D play. Unless you have a DM who is running the game like a minis combat game with no roleplaying involved. I'm really not interested in playing in or running that sort of game.

Again, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s reference to a 'hard railroad' is apropos.

No. It's complete BS. Not one single instance of railroad is needed to accomplish a chain such as Pippin went through. If you believe this, you are completely out of touch with the standard playstyle and no longer really understand it.
 

Specific to 1e D&D this makes sense, though I take issue with describing it as reduced to no more than "a puzzle-solving, maze-solving exercise". More broadly and less system-specific, the game is in part about exploring and learning about the setting through the eyes of your PC, whether that setting is provided by the DM or by something pre-published e.g. Greyhawk, Golarion, whatever. This exploration largely assumes a setting that is more or less in place waiting to be explored.
'classic' D&D (by which I mean essentially TSR D&D) follows an arc of development. The earliest conception of the game is of a vast dungeon, filled with treasure and monsters, which the PCs explore systematically. It may, or may not in some cases, be associated with a 'town' where the PCs can recruit henchmen, heal, buy and sell things, etc.

The next stage of evolution was to include a 'wilderness' which follows a similar formula (entirely generated by the GM and discovered by the players through action resolution, with its characteristics, the facts of the game world, acting as constrains). This wilderness exploration stage starts to break down the paradigm, because the dungeon puts hard constraints on things, you can only travel by the prescribed routes, etc. but the wilderness has far fewer such constraints.

Finally high level play created even greater issues by further breaking down the constraints and thus making it hard for the GM to anticipate the course of action. It also involved things like 'freeholds' and such, which are MUCH more abstract and rely on highly subjective GM judgments.

As players demanded more dramatic elements in play the game evolved in conception ultimately to 2nd Edition AD&D where the game EXPLICITLY states that the objective is to create interesting stories involving the PC's heroic exploits.

The point being: what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] describes is a pretty accurate summary of the essence of the Ur of D&D, its primordial mode of play. I can attest to the accuracy of this description since I both played and DMed in this period, the mid-70's.

This is the contention with which I disagree: I don't at all think "most" contemporary play has moved far from its classic foundation at all, but has rather added the bits about interesting characters and story on to what was already there.
On the contrary, from the publication of the module A1, which was, IMHO, the first 'story based' adventure to be published (someone will probably find antecedents, but it isn't that important) the game left the original paradigm behind in the sense that the narrative was now ABOUT the characters and their dramatic needs and evolution. It was CERTAINLY far less constrained than previous play. Even the 'D' modules don't really have the degree of reliance on plot and character motive that A1 has. D3 is a pretty big 'sandbox', but its still really a pure exploratory exercise, just writ large.

So, I would say that A1 marks the 'death of the dungeon maze' as the principle paradigm. I can attest, again by having been there, that this was a conclusion drawn AT THE TIME by both players and reviewers of this module and its successors.

While I agree that play methods have NOT in a lot of cases evolved too much, I will address how this is in tension with actual play practice below.

It puts some more work on to the DM, but it's not impractical in the least. The players just have to realize that they're quite realistically almost never going to have all the information they need, and that now and then this lack of information (or flat-out inaccuracy of information) is going to mess them up. On a broader scale, the players have to accept that the GM is going to be keeping secrets from them only on a bigger scale than simple dungeon-crawl play would expec, and that the GM is going to be informed by these secrets when determining the results of PC actions.

The PCs (and players at the table) won't always know why some action or other resolved the way it did...just like real life, that way...and this is not a problem unless the players at that table feel they have some sort of right or entitlement to know everything about anything that affects their PCs including things their PCs have no in-game way of knowing - at which point those players can find another table, 'cause they ain't playing at mine.
Yes, and these factors are in tension with, and undermine, exactly what you contend is 'easy'. In fact it isn't easy at all! 2e D&D is so infamously incoherent in the alignment of its declared narrative agenda and its GM-centered and often procedural mechanics that it hardly even bears comment! The only way to achieve the sort of narrative story arcs imagined is Illusionism and GM force, and the stories themselves must largely stem from the GM's imagination. You can read my previous post responding to Maxperson on the impossibility of unsignalled agendas leading to the desires story arcs and how this makes his proposed method of play literally a negative-image of Story Now.

Yes - exploration of the game-world or setting in which the PCs find themselves. It's one of the three pillars of play that have always been there but weren't clearly defined as such until 5e D&D came along.

In effect, as this discussion has gone on, it's become evident that the OP is asking whether this pillar is worth keeping.

Lanefan

Needless to say, I have little use for the maunderings of Mike Mearls. I think his idea of 'pillars of play' is unhelpful at the very least, and is at best an analysis of one facet of one specific technique of RPG play, which he seems to imagine is somehow all-encompassing. At the very least he seems to imagine that it is all he need ever address in terms of catering to his specific audience. This is part of the reason I have analyzed 5e as the 'tombstone' of D&D. It envisages no further horizon, and no ambition for any wider play experience, or any desire to explore beyond the boundaries of existing D&D lore, play techniques, rule formulations, etc.

So, speaking for myself and not the OP, I don't even consider the whole question of 'pillars' to be interesting. I've reformulated by own flavor of 'D&D' upon an entirely different set of precepts. The idea of pillars and some sort of 'balance between them' is irrelevant within my conception. That doesn't make exploration an impossible agenda, it just puts it at the level of agenda, and not of a 'mechanical space' within the game's rules construct. Put it this way, I would say that if a player chooses to make character build choices and narrative choices which focus on abilities which relate to exploration, then Story Now concerns dictate that the GM in a HoML game would present exploratory challenges.

I would say that, dramatically, exploration is generally more an element of framing than it is a direct response to character development. In other words a character, dramatically, is unlikely to have an agenda that is purely 'explore for the sake of exploration'. If I was presented with a character which the player had drawn up like this, the first thing I would do is challenge them to explore the MOTIVE for exploration, because exploration is an ACTIVITY, not a belief or end goal.

Lets imagine, a player might respond that he is a worshipper of Ioun, and holds exploration to be an element of devotion to his patron. So now the character's core belief has been refined to a dedication to Ioun, and that probably has some motivational story attached to it. The exploration element isn't being denied, it is described as an interest and avocation of the character. It just isn't what we would generally leverage. A story would take place WHILE exploring. The story might test the character's devotion to Ioun, maybe by making exploration a costly activity in some way (IE loss of lives, wealth expended, necessity to make morally fraught choices, etc.). So I can frame a scene as "while exploring XYZ, your brother-in-law falls in a pit and perishes, what about that?" (I'm extrapolating the outcome of the action here, as well as the initial framing). How does the character break the news to his sister? Does he consider this price to be worth the service to Ioun which it represents? Just how far will he go? Will he sacrifice 10 lives to cross the mountains? 20? 100? How will the folks back home treat that? Will he be able to return and face them?
 

I have already proven this to be false. The only way the above happens is if the DM is violating the social contract. Otherwise, he is forced to go along with player agendas that are possible. See my northern barbarians example. A DM who violates the social contract this way and keeps all of the agency is no different from the Story Now DM who constantly blocks players. It's simply not done by a DM running the style properly.

Players may have more agency(if you re-define agency like @pemerton has) in Story Now, but my style of play doesn't allow for the DM to have all of the agency.

But again, this is only allowing to pick between a menu of options the GM makes available. If the player chooses some OTHER course, then it will fail (presumably due to as-yet unrevealed backstory which makes the action impossible). As my earlier response to you (after you posted this) makes clear, the chances that the GM will 'get it right' in respect to a SPECIFIC agenda of a player is highly limited. Now, if the GM is willing to alter his backstory or generate it as essentially Story Now framing (IE to answer player agenda) then it might work. But this isn't 'proving me false', it is VINDICATING my point! To the extent that you abandon the classic approach and adopt Story Now techniques, and are willing to allow the player's statements of agenda to reshape any accidentally impeding backstory, you can start to achieve the kind of results I would get. ;)
 

Just because they have a small standing army, doesn't mean that they have small populations. Also, that city wasn't built by Gondor. It was built by Numenoreans, who had superior technology and ability.

It was built by Elendil and other exiles, presumably, near the end of the Second Age. In LotR it is depicted, virtually unchanged, 3 THOUSAND years later, albeit for the last few 100 years a 'new dynasty' (the Stewards) has replaced the line of Elendil. Its the sheer static nature of things in ME, that in 3000 years of the Third Age Gondor hasn't built even one new city, has been ruled by basically one family, hasn't advanced technologically, socially, or in any other way that we can discern.

The history depicted in the Appendices outlines a fair number of events which have happened in Gondor and Western ME in 3000 years, but none of them seem to have had much impact on how people live, what they believe, etc.

Now project this onto the real world, 3000 years ago in world history the Middle East was dominated by primitive hydraulic empires, Greece was a land of primitive Palace States, the rest of Europe was still in the stone or at best bronze age, iron had only recently been invented by the Hittites, and Egypt was still a world power. Rome didn't exist at all, nor even Athens. China was still a land of barely semi-historical kingdoms, mostly we really have no idea what was there. India was in the midst of some sort of large-scale de-urbanization which nobody can even figure out (we can't even read the script used in this time period, and probably never will).

We can barely IMAGINE what the world of 3000 years ago was like. A Gondorian of year 100 of the Third Age would be perfectly at home in year 3000 Gondor! Heck, he could probably find his way around the streets of Minas Tirith (although he would call it Minas Anor).
 

This argument is flawed, as simulationist games are not about being realistic(mirroring reality). Rather, they are about realism, which is a sliding scale with absolute chaos and no rules on one extreme, and absolute reality on the other end. On that scale, simulationist games are further towards the reality end of things, but aren't there and never will be. Story now is close to the chaos end of things. Standard D&D is in-between both.

Even within all of those styles, Simulationist, Story Now, and Standard D&D, each person will have their own personal preference on where on the realism scale they like things to be. It's best to find people with similar ranges of realism, so that things work smoothly.

I obviously don't agree. I think you are correct in stating that the ACTUALITY of 'simulation' is not able to achieve realistic results. This is almost a truism. So the point stands. In actuality players adopt a gamist stance, they play a practical game. Then they varnish on a few bits of 'simulation', but as I pointed out even these are largely just gamist considerations in simulationist paint.
 

You don't have to know to offer the PC the chance to meet Denethor. It happens or doesn't. Not a single even in the chain or Pippin's growth requires a formal agenda.



It's not any more implausible than any other chain of events that happens every single time I run a game. Character growth WILL HAPPEN due to events in my game. Those events will be a chain.



That's just not true. Character growth arcs like that happen in virtually every game of classic D&D play. Unless you have a DM who is running the game like a minis combat game with no roleplaying involved. I'm really not interested in playing in or running that sort of game.



No. It's complete BS. Not one single instance of railroad is needed to accomplish a chain such as Pippin went through. If you believe this, you are completely out of touch with the standard playstyle and no longer really understand it.

Thank you for proving my point!

Yes, SOMETHING happens in these games. If it is 'character growth' that is entirely a random result!
 

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