What is your thoughts on multiclassing?
- Thread starter DM-Rocco
- Start date
I'm very happy with 4E multiclassing. I feel like I have more ability to customize my character via feats (especially with the ability to acquire Skill Training and formerly-class abilities - like Evasion - to change my character's flavor even before getting into the multiclassing.)
Balance wise, I find it works great - and by doing so, means most characters I see are much more built around concept, rather than the hodge-podge of classes that 3rd Edition produced.
The one area I wasn't impressed with was Paragon multiclassing - and I think that with the addition of some of the feats that reward that (as seen in Martial Power), I am now happy with the multiclassing system as a whole.
Balance wise, I find it works great - and by doing so, means most characters I see are much more built around concept, rather than the hodge-podge of classes that 3rd Edition produced.
The one area I wasn't impressed with was Paragon multiclassing - and I think that with the addition of some of the feats that reward that (as seen in Martial Power), I am now happy with the multiclassing system as a whole.
Jack99
Adventurer
My players seem to like them. 7 out of the last 8 characters created for the campaigns I am in has been multi-class to varying degree.
Myself, I love the concept and find it way better than any of the prior versions of multi-classing. It's still not perfect, but am toying with tweaks that look a bit like PS' ideas. But I do not plan to introduce said changes until the next campaign, which will hopefully not be until 2010 or 2011.
Myself, I love the concept and find it way better than any of the prior versions of multi-classing. It's still not perfect, but am toying with tweaks that look a bit like PS' ideas. But I do not plan to introduce said changes until the next campaign, which will hopefully not be until 2010 or 2011.
This sounds better to me in comparsion, I will be interested to hear how your playtesting goes.
DM-Rocco
Explorer
You mean paragon multiclassing as far as not taking an existing paragon class?
So a fighter who took a multiclass into wizard could still take a wizard paragon path right?
That would make sense.
I think the current system contradicts itself though. Your first feat will give you an at-will useable once per round, but every other multiclass feat swaps power for power.
I think the principle is sound, multiclassing without having to give up levels of the base class.
Just out of curiosity, how many feats do you think a player should have to spend, or what level/prerequisite, would you have on a single feat, that allowed a multiclassing character to either gain a power from the multiclass or swap a power along with a bonus, like the addition of a class feature or something?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I'll post something in the 4e house rules once I've had some decent feedback about it.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
No, I meant that at Paragon level everyone gets to take a paragon path of their choice (which may well include ones which are designed for their multiclass as much as one designed for their class). There wouldn't be any 'paragon multiclassing' as per 4e though, as I don't think it would add anything to the party. The multiclasser can get pretty much what he wants from the existing stuff.
I'm not sure what you mean by contradicts itself? The first feat swaps an at will, in the same what the other feats swap encounter attacks, utilities and daily attacks.
The at-will powers are where a huge amount of the flavour of the class resides, hence why I introduce them as a swap at the early point (and it isn't a no-brainer for most classes which of their existing at-wills they would lose either - most classes have at least 2 good at-wills they are interested in).
I'm not sure that I completely follow your question, sorry!
For the class feats I'm just going to include a few prereqs to ensure that there should be a logical connection (e.g. warlock curse must come before warlock pact boon) and that some of the 'top' class features can't be bought too cheaply (e.g. must take either Brutal Scoundrel or Artful Dodger before you take Sneak Attack) or in the case of leaders the general powers (inspiring word) come before the specific powers (tactical doo-dah for tactical warlock, turn undead for the cleric).
I don't think my solution is a panacea that will suit everybody by any means, although I think it is interesting that I've been talking about this for months and now I see some class feature feats appearing in Martial Power
These are just my thoughts on multiclassing
Cheers
Our group hasn't had lots of experience with multiclassing (we haven't yet gotten above 4th level in any of our campaigns). But we have had one or two take the first feat to start dabbling.
Having said that, some observations just by reading the rules on it.
It is simple which is a BIG plus: no more awkward partial base attack bonuses etc or worrying about cross class skills or other wierdness that cropped up in 3.X multiclassing.
That first feat to start multiclassing is definetly worth more than other feats (a free trained skill and bonus effect), so that is a huge boone.
I also like the idea that you are swapping out powers for other ones, so you're staying "at the same level" as everyone else in terms of the amount of options you have. That also helps keep things simple and relatively equal.
However, the paragon multiclassing option seems weak. 4 feats and missing out on additional action point uses and missing out on some stronger attack powers...
The hard thing to balance (from a player perspective) is which ability to swap. Because if the power isn't based off one of your strong ability scores, or isn't based off an ability score that you're able to bump up with level (due to dependancy on other stats in your primary class) then your attack power with the swapped power does fall behind the curve.
Overall, i find it a definate improvement over 3.x. is it perfect? no. but it isn't bad either.
(again, all just my opinion based on reading and not actual play since our group has not gotten very high in level yet)
Having said that, some observations just by reading the rules on it.
It is simple which is a BIG plus: no more awkward partial base attack bonuses etc or worrying about cross class skills or other wierdness that cropped up in 3.X multiclassing.
That first feat to start multiclassing is definetly worth more than other feats (a free trained skill and bonus effect), so that is a huge boone.
I also like the idea that you are swapping out powers for other ones, so you're staying "at the same level" as everyone else in terms of the amount of options you have. That also helps keep things simple and relatively equal.
However, the paragon multiclassing option seems weak. 4 feats and missing out on additional action point uses and missing out on some stronger attack powers...
The hard thing to balance (from a player perspective) is which ability to swap. Because if the power isn't based off one of your strong ability scores, or isn't based off an ability score that you're able to bump up with level (due to dependancy on other stats in your primary class) then your attack power with the swapped power does fall behind the curve.
Overall, i find it a definate improvement over 3.x. is it perfect? no. but it isn't bad either.
(again, all just my opinion based on reading and not actual play since our group has not gotten very high in level yet)
resistor
First Post
I don't play much 4e, but I'm somewhat wary of its multiclassing system based on experience I had playing Guild Wars (yes, the MMO), which uses a similar system.
In GW, you have both a primary and a secondary profession. You can use powers from both professions, but you gain access to a special attribute to level up for your primary profession that you don't get for your secondary. The upshot is that a primary warrior is always better than a secondary warrior, because the former has leveled up his special warrior stat while the latter hasn't.
This all seems fine and dandy offhand. I started playing with a Warrior/Dervish, and all was well: my character was 60% warrior, 40% dervish. But, over the course of play, I discovered that I really liked playing as a dervish more, with a little bit of warrior thrown in. But, no matter how many dervish skills I used, I would never be as good as someone who had started as Dervish/Warrior.
Basically, I don't like the fact that one class has to be considered primary, and the fact that the class that is primary is fixed at character creation. What if my fighter starts to dabble in magic, and discovers he likes it more than fighting? In 3e-style multiclassing, I just keep taking more Wizard levels. But in 4e (and GW) style multiclassing, the best I can hope for is a 50/50 hybrid.
In GW, you have both a primary and a secondary profession. You can use powers from both professions, but you gain access to a special attribute to level up for your primary profession that you don't get for your secondary. The upshot is that a primary warrior is always better than a secondary warrior, because the former has leveled up his special warrior stat while the latter hasn't.
This all seems fine and dandy offhand. I started playing with a Warrior/Dervish, and all was well: my character was 60% warrior, 40% dervish. But, over the course of play, I discovered that I really liked playing as a dervish more, with a little bit of warrior thrown in. But, no matter how many dervish skills I used, I would never be as good as someone who had started as Dervish/Warrior.
Basically, I don't like the fact that one class has to be considered primary, and the fact that the class that is primary is fixed at character creation. What if my fighter starts to dabble in magic, and discovers he likes it more than fighting? In 3e-style multiclassing, I just keep taking more Wizard levels. But in 4e (and GW) style multiclassing, the best I can hope for is a 50/50 hybrid.
SpydersWebbing
First Post
I like multiclassing just as it is. Fluff wise it makes sense. Whenever you start learning something different you don't just pick up the ability to do everything right away, and even then it takes further effort.
I realize what everyone here is saying, but given what you can get with paragon multiclassing (half your powers changing every single time something better comes along) there are times when it is preferable.
I've watched a couple of people multiclass in 4e, and it looks awesome. I haven't done it yet, since I haven't come up with a concept that would include it, but I'm looking forward to the day when I do.
I realize what everyone here is saying, but given what you can get with paragon multiclassing (half your powers changing every single time something better comes along) there are times when it is preferable.
I've watched a couple of people multiclass in 4e, and it looks awesome. I haven't done it yet, since I haven't come up with a concept that would include it, but I'm looking forward to the day when I do.
