D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[NotAYakk]

What is the hp range by CR on the DMG monster creation table derived from? Having a tough time reverse engineering it." (2018)

A change of 15 points per CR from 1 up to level 20 is hard to reverse engineer?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

A change of 15 points per CR from 1 up to level 20 is hard to reverse engineer?

I mean why did they pick those numbers? I'm assuming it's based on some sort of party of characters and how long it would take them to defeat that monster. What does that party look like? I posted a thread on it back then but there wasn't a lot of interest. If there is interest in reverse engineering the numbers now, I'd be willing to start a new thread.

 

[Asisreo]

I mean why did they pick those numbers? I'm assuming it's based on some sort of party of characters and how long it would take them to defeat that monster. What does that party look like? I posted a thread on it back then but there wasn't a lot of interest. If there is interest in reverse engineering the numbers now, I'd be willing to start a new thread.

I like that kinda stuff, but I probably won't try it until after work tomorrow.

 

[NotAYakk]

I mean why did they pick those numbers? I'm assuming it's based on some sort of party of characters and how long it would take them to defeat that monster. What does that party look like? I posted a thread on it back then but there wasn't a lot of interest. If there is interest in reverse engineering the numbers now, I'd be willing to start a new thread.

Ah, well if you take Soak*DPR*(accuracy and AC fudge, worth about 10% per point) you get a value that scales linearly with XP.

If you do the same with a Paladin, smiting all their slots and festless, with modest magic items, you get a comeasurate budget per encounter over a standard adventuring day.

It takes a bit of fudging (when do you get plus X magic items?), but the model isn't hard.

The monster power curve in the DMG is so patterned it looks like a power budget target. AC etc is a bit wonkey. But then they can build PC classes to approximate that budget.

I got into it because I'm trying to fix some progression problems I see with the back 10 levels of many non-casters; this will impact power budget, and I'd like to be able to have a functioning encounter building math afterwards.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I always vote fighter because the 5e fighter is badass and don't care about your pathetic "reason."

Lemme get academic about this, though. The scenario as described in the OP is intentionally tilted toward the wizard. The wizard's thing is preparation. The more he knows, and the more time he has, the more absolutely SOL you are against him. The fighter, by contrast, excels at "I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS BUT IF IT BLEEDS IT DIES" type situations. And his core class feature is that if you give him an hour to sharpen his sword and eat a can of spinach, he's right back to a full tank.

To have a fair playing field, you have to mix in both the prep an the randomness. So sure, they both know who they're fighting...after a random number of random encounters with random-length breaks between them.

 

[FrogReaver]

Here. Dave responded to my Tweet and JC confirmed he is correct.



So, according to the Gospel of JC, you cannot modify the trigger of Counterspell, thus a creature casting a spell must be within 60 feet.

If you want to rule otherwise at your table, do so, but it is not RAW nor supported by the game designers, namely JC.

First of all, I'll accept that ruling for the purposes of this thread.

There are a few issues I have.

1. You basically asked the question in such a way as to lead them to your preferred answer. A more neutral question would be a wizard cast fireball at the party from 100ft away, can I use distant spell with counterspell and counter it? I firmly believe the answer to that question, had it came first, would have been different.
2. JC has made some terrible rulings that stood for years until he corrected them years later out of the blue.
3. It also would have been interesting to know if they had intended for counterspell to be able to be used with distant spell to trigger spells cast out to 120 ft or if they had intended the wording to explicitly forbid it.

That is to say, I've came to value JC's opinion less and less over the years - though I still find it interesting. I also find the Twitter medium terrible as neutral non-leading questions are never asked.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Who has the best nova abilities. I am curious how paladin and sorcerers do. But the hp of the Druid wild shaping and barbarian bear totem makes me curious also. Really not sure. Haven’t played enough 20th level for pvp purposes.

Bear Totem Killer: An Eldritch Knight with Shadow Blade is doing psychic damage, the one thing that the Barbarian isn't resistant to. Upcast level 3 and Action Surge for 8 Attacks in a turn with a 3d8 weapon. With Dueling fighting style and max strength it is an average 20.5 damage per hit. +11 to hit. I don't think anyone else can nova that much psychic damage. The Eldritch Knight is generally given an edge amongst martials in this no magic item situation because Shadow Blade does then become the most powerful weapon available and they have it.

Moon Druid Killer: Sorcerer. Sorcerer takes Power Word Kill and Fly (if they can't fly from class or racial features). Attack with cantrips. If Moon Druid's form is ever below 100 hit points Quicken Power Word Kill for instant death. With flight the Moon Druid has to turn into a flying shape to catch you and none of them have over 100 hit points so they better not do that as long as you've got Power Word Kill in your back pocket. If their shape gets real low on health they can also be hit with Sleep giving the Sorcerer a full minute to prepare some other doom for them (delayed action fireball time anyone?).

Note that in an actual campaign a Wizard is far more likely to have learned Power Word Kill because it is mostly kind of a waste for a 9th level spell and a Sorcerer spell known. Since they can't quicken spells though they would have to use a more complicated tactic to get the Druid in that danger zone at the beginning of their turn.

As for Paladins, they don't actually quite nova as well as some Fighters at level 20 until the Fighters use up their Action Surges. Conquest Paladins do the best because they get one more attack and expanded crit range at level 20, but even as a Polearm master with 4 total attacks, dropping 4 sets of smites, it doesn't quite add up to 8 attacks from a Shadow Blading Eldritch Knight or a Battlemaster with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter if they unload all their maneuver dice. With quality magic weapons basically any level 20 Fighter would surpass them with an action surge. They nova far better than Fighters through most of the game though, and Fighters never get more than 2 action surge nova rounds per rest whereas they can lay down a lot of smites and save them for when they actually hit.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I always vote fighter because the 5e fighter is badass and don't care about your pathetic "reason."

20th level Fighter, the only guy who ever gets to use the phrase "for my 9th attack". Suck it magicians.

 

[Asisreo]

Moon Druid Killer: Sorcerer. Sorcerer takes Power Word Kill and Fly (if they can't fly from class or racial features). Attack with cantrips. If Moon Druid's form is ever below 100 hit points Quicken Power Word Kill for instant death. With flight the Moon Druid has to turn into a flying shape to catch you and none of them have over 100 hit points so they better not do that as long as you've got Power Word Kill in your back pocket. If their shape gets real low on health they can also be hit with Sleep giving the Sorcerer a full minute to prepare some other doom for them (delayed action fireball time anyone?).

Eh...I definitely wouldn't waste a PWK on a Druid's wildshape form. I'd probably keep leading them in the sky while casting something like a web, which restrains them and therefore reduces their speed to 0, having them take the roughly 15-20d6 (being optimal). I'd probably then either cast PWK or a high-level damaging spell so for the overflow damage on the next turn. Maybe a heightened Finger of Death?

Note that in an actual campaign a Wizard is far more likely to have learned Power Word Kill because it is mostly kind of a waste for a 9th level spell and a Sorcerer spell known. Since they can't quicken spells though they would have to use a more complicated tactic to get the Druid in that danger zone at the beginning of their turn.

It's actually pretty easy to grab every single 9th-level spell as a sorcerer if you set out for it. You're probably keeping only the all-star 1st-level spells in your spells-known. Same as the other spells up to 4th or 5th level, so you'll probably won't even need 50% of your spells known for this specific fight. I don't think it's too wise to grab PWK, though, unless you have a specific strategy for it. Then again, if you can get initiative first, a quicken firebolt/PWK could kill a wizard with a +1 con mod.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Ah, well if you take Soak*DPR*(accuracy and AC fudge, worth about 10% per point) you get a value that scales linearly with XP.

If you do the same with a Paladin, smiting all their slots and festless, with modest magic items, you get a comeasurate budget per encounter over a standard adventuring day.

It takes a bit of fudging (when do you get plus X magic items?), but the model isn't hard.

The monster power curve in the DMG is so patterned it looks like a power budget target. AC etc is a bit wonkey. But then they can build PC classes to approximate that budget.

I got into it because I'm trying to fix some progression problems I see with the back 10 levels of many non-casters; this will impact power budget, and I'd like to be able to have a functioning encounter building math afterwards.

Yeah, there are a lot of considerations involved. I'm pretty sure magic item plusses were not included (magic items were not included in the design math). Sounds like there's interest in it now, so we should probably start a new thread.