What Level is a Guardsman?

[Wormwood]

i would feel i have shortchanged the players if they picked what they thought was an easy fight and i always made it a challenge. so if i didn't want it to be a challenge i reckon would aim for 3rd to 5th in 4e

If the players wanted an 'easy' challenge, then I could just whip up a [party level -2] encounter.

If, however, for story reasons, they really wanted a 'we mop up the floor with some city guards' scene? Then yeah, we'd just narrate it out.

 

[Snoweel]

I know we've had this out before, but I still can't figure out why PCs over 10th level are wasting their time fighting city guards ...

Maybe the guards started it?

It's not like PC's have their levels tattood on their foreheads. How are the guards to know they're outclassed?

If the players wanted an 'easy' challenge, then I could just whip up a [party level -2] encounter.

If, however, for story reasons, they really wanted a 'we mop up the floor with some city guards' scene? Then yeah, we'd just narrate it out.

This is generally how I do it.

But it's good to know roughly what level potential threats are so you know at what PC level to make them Solos/Elites/Normals/Minions/a purely narrative encounter.

 

[Wormwood]

I know we've had this out before, but I still can't figure out why PCs over 10th level are wasting their time fighting city guards ...

For the record, neither can I. This is an exercise in the hypothetical, as far as my campaign is concerned.

 

[Snoweel]

There are a lot of reasons why 10th level PCs might fight city guards.

For starters, 10th level in 4th edition represents a vastly different level of absolute power than it does in 1st edition, 2nd edition or 3.nth edition.

The 3.x DMG states that your average guard will be a 1st level warrior.

The 4e MM shows the same guard to be a 3rd level soldier.

Now, I know that the examples in the MM are just that - examples, but even if you go with the 3rd level soldier, converted to a minion the same guard could go up to 11th level before he offers the same amount of experience as the 3rd level soldier version.

And all of a sudden you can throw 10 guards plus a sergeant at your 10th level party and it's an encounter worth rolling dice for, yet will still show your PCs to be the badasses they are.

But if you're married to the idea that guards are only good for beating up peasants and a PC of 10th level is TEH AWESOME!!!!!1!! then obviously you're not going to have your 10th level party fighting guards.

But there's a long way to go from 10th level to 30th.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I say the level depends on how you theme your game. If 10th level or hell 20th is only in that world viewed as someone who is say a "accomplished fighter", then it stands to reason that City Guards could be around those level.

Levels are completely abstract, as such what a level means can alter for any campaign.

I know in mine, it is quite natural for there to be 10-15th level Guards since that isn't that extra-ordinary.

 

[Vegepygmy]

In 3E, I used the demographic charts in the DMG. A typical town guard was divided into 5 or 10 man squads of 1st Level Warriors, each commanded by a 1st level Fighter. There were usually a few 3rd or 4th Level leaders (maybe 1 for every 40 or so regular guardsmen), and 1 higher level guard captain (usually 4th or 6th level).

That's how I do it, too.

I totally reject the notion that an NPC's level has anything to do with the PCs' level. That's fine for other people, but I don't like it.

 

[wingsandsword]

Typical town guardsman?

2nd Level Warrior for most places, a professional and modestly experienced combatant used to low-end engagements with drunks, pickpockets and other low end encounters but not trained or experienced in dealing with powerful dedicated menaces like big monsters. Novice guards or guards in particularly peaceful towns where nothing ever happens might be 1st level warriors, guards in frontier towns where they have to defend themselves from marauders/monsters more often or rough & tumble cities might be 3rd level warriors on average.

While a typical PC can mop the floor with them, a patrol of 2 or 3 2nd or 3rd level warriors with what I'd consider typical guard equipment like chain mail, light crossbow, shortsword and a light shield, and of course some manacles (maybe even masterwork equipment depending on how rich the town is) would be just fine for dealing with typical drunken barfights between Commoner 1's using their fists, daggers or improvised weapons (or even things a little tougher), and other low-end encounters they'll likely find in town. They might not last long in a dungeon or in the deep wilderness, but this is the (relative) safety of town.

I'm definitely for more of the "what is there, is there" idea, and I'm not about to automagically level up all the town guards or quadruple their numbers to make a tough fight scene. Just because a party 10th level PC's cheese off the Magistrate of the Town of Bilgewater and all 12 town guards suddenly jump up several levels or get PC classes or somehow get huge reinforcements. Rewriting the game world to constantly be a perfect challenge for the PC's is a huge stretch of suspension of disbelief. That sure would make my PC's scratch their head in wonder about why the town needs them go slay the dragon that is threatening them, when they've got an entire garrison of guards that is as strong as they are.

 

[Snoweel]

all 12 town guards suddenly jump up several levels or get PC classes or somehow get huge reinforcements. Rewriting the game world to constantly be a perfect challenge for the PC's is a huge stretch of suspension of disbelief.

Who the hell does this?

Everybody I've ever seen here talk about their game delivers challenges of varying grades of difficulty, from hard, through easy and onto inconsequential.

Are you even talking about the same topic?

That sure would make my PC's scratch their head in wonder about why the town needs them go slay the dragon that is threatening them, when they've got an entire garrison of guards that is as strong as they are.

Ah this old chestnut? It's been addressed a hundred times on these boards since 3rd edition came out.

Ability =/= desire to risk one's life.

 

[Wormwood]

Ah this old chestnut? It's been addressed a hundred times on these boards since 3rd edition came out.

Actually, that's been an issue since Ultima I.

Didn't bother me then, doesn't bother me now

 

[S'mon]

3e D&D - I did stats for the d20 NPCs wiki - link in sig - 3rd level warrior guards, 5th level warrior sergeants/elite guards, 7th level warrior elite guard sergeants. That's what I think is reasonable for a typical 3e world city-state like Greyhawk where STR 17 orc War-1s are 10 a penny and the city guard will have to regularly tangle with low level Rogues, Barbarians and such. I use the War-5s and War-7s for the Palace Guard of the Overking IMC. Backed up by Wizards and Clerics they would be suitable as a platoon or company size elite force within a regular city guard, that could take on common threats in the CR 1-4 range, like low level adventurer parties or raiding ogres. They could take on a troll or hill giant but might lose some men, so the city would prefer mid-level adventurers to deal with CR5+ threats.

BTW For Moldvay B/X D&D the monster entry for Veteran Mercenaries works fine, a group of Fighters of 1st-3rd level. They may be backed up by a 2nd-3rd level Cleric with 'command' or a 1st-3rd level M-U with 'Sleep', 'Charm Person', possibly 'Web'.

For 1e-2e AD&D I'd recommend bumping up the DMG listed stats a notch - instead of F0s make them F1 or F2, with a sergeant 1 level higher. Accompanying Cleric or Magic-User as listed is fine.