D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Lyxen]

The reality is that dealing large amounts of damage to a single foe is the most useful ability in the game. It’s useful in most encounters, in most environmenta, and at most levels. Similarly the ability to take damage and hits is almost as useful.

While not completely true in more balanced games, it's obvious that the most difficult fights are going to be the boss fight, and it's about taking the boss down (the minions might even run away at that point) and surviving to do it.

The truth is that being able to use shenanigans appeals to some players and some players just want to kick the living $#!¥ out of something. I’m ok with that.

Exactly, especially if you don't even want to play a fighter yourself, projecting your personal wants and needs on other players is a mistake, lots of people and tables have different expectations and ways to play the game.

 

[TheSword]

Easily dealt with with just a few spells. Mage armor gives AC of 13+Dex, meaning you'd need a negative modifier to be so poorly-off, and it lasts all day, so it's one 1st-level spell, a pittance for a even a 10th-level Wizard. They're likely to be much closer than 5 points, though. The best AC you can get without magic items is 21, and that's only if they hyper-specialize in defense at the expense of other things (sword-and-board + plate armor + Defense fighting style). A Wizard with mage armor and a mere +3 Dex mod--easily achieved by level 12, since Wizards only really value Int, Dex, and Con as stats--is exactly 5 points less than the best possible AC a Fighter can have without magic. And then for emergencies, shield can handily deal with other problems, which completely covers that gap for the price of another 1st-level spell. Plus, because shield is only for attacks that actually hit you and lasts the rest of the round, it's almost never wasted!

The HP gap would be more of a problem if the Wizard weren't so much better at playing keep-away than the Fighter could ever dream of being. Misty step, invisibility, and (especially) mirror image all dramatically mitigate that...and those are all 2nd level spells, which while not as much of a pittance as 1st level ones, are a pretty easy cost to swallow. And then fly and blink at 3rd level are even better, and vampiric touch can even make up for the HP problem in a pinch (though I wouldn't rely on it myself).

Throw mage armor, shield, misty step, mirror image, fly, and blink on a 13th-level Wizard. This isn't even half the spells you know of any of those categories, since you gain two spells at every Wizard level after 1st (and six at 1st level!) If you can learn some spells from scrolls or books, it would of course be useful, but far from necessary. Oh, and even with Arcane Recovery giving you an extra 5th level slot, you still have 2 extra spell levels' worth of refresh, so you can regain a 2nd level slot or two 1st level slots, for a total of four 2nd or six 1st level spells a day. This is not a Batman Wizard who can summon every spell imaginable from a quantum spellbook; this isn't even a particularly comprehensive approach, just a useful one--and you still have 12 other spells you can prepare each day (level 13 + Int mod of 5 = 18 prepared spells each day).

This approach even works great for several Wizard schools. Abjuration, bladesinging, chronurgy, conjuration, divination, and war magic are all excellent. Eocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation are all decent, albeit needing a bit more effort to make maximum use of. I think the ideal is probably Diviner or Abjurer, though Conjurer has the fun of teleporting a ridiculous amount of times, and Bladesinger/Warmage are best if actually intending to get into fisticuffs, since they mitigate the AC problem quite nicely. (Indeed, a Bladesinger can actually rival the AC-hyperfocused Fighter while in Bladesong; mage armor + Dex mod 3 + Int mod 5 = 13 + 3 + 5 = 21; with higher Dex, you can actually exceed the best non-magical AC a Fighter can achieve.)

So...yeah. You can do a hell of a lot to mitigate these issues, while still having 75% or more of your kit open for utility, power, shenanigans, or just goofing off. That's why I say a 13th-level Wizard is on a par with a 20th level Fighter. Are there things the Wizard might struggle to deal with still? Sure, we can construct situations like that. But overall, in general, the Wizard is in a better position, and with even a little bit of foreknowledge and a DM that isn't completely denying any opportunity to scribe more spells, they can be in an excellent position for nearly all situations. The Fighter, even at level 20, has absolutely nothing they can do to bridge that gap.

Wizards-in-the-generic can put a portion of their resources to being like Fighters, while still having the vast majority of their Wizard-ly stuff and not needing to take a "specifically becoming more like a Fighter" subclass (though, of course, they can still choose to). Fighters-in-the-generic? Not a chance. It takes actually becoming part-Wizard (EK), and even then, it's slim pickings.

I’ve seen a lot of casters in 5e across three gaming groups. I’ve never seen a caster use the first three rounds of a combat to cast mirror image, fly and blink… mainly because the combat is usually done by then.

Add in those shield spells, and misty steps to keep you alive while you’re doing it and you have have just wasted a third of your daily spells and done nothing of value apart from possibly soak damage.

For the record. The 6 out of your 18 spells is actually a major resource drain. They’re worth taking sure, but it’s not a minor cost. 12 remaining spells definitely isn’t abundant, when you take into account utility spells, battlefield control and damage dealing.

Most importantly though. The Fighter doesn’t need to ‘bridge the gap’ because they are pret a porter from round one with the most important and most commonly required abilities in the game, taking hits and dishing hits out. That’s why a 20th fighter is on par with A 20th wizard.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Based on the assumption that the Fighter has been given at least some magic items as they level, feats are included.

I basically rated on two different scales: Power = pure hit point damage and Shenanigans = ability to change the course of an encounter/adventure/problem through other means, and then combined them.

Power, the Fighter leads most of the time. At 10th level the Wizard is probably at least even due to AoE damage, but the Fighter will jump ahead again at level 11.

Assuming that the party will regularly be encountering elemental- or magic-resistant opponents and often be in AoE-unfriendly situations, Fighter leads in power at level 20.

Shenanigans: The fighter has . . . Action surge?
Skill use is a toss-up. Wizard has technically higher total potential bonus, but athletics can be more broadly applicable.

And the Wizard has all their spells. Its rather hard to compare a high score with what is functionally no score.

 

[jmartkdr2]

One point on in-combat shenanigans: a wizard can do some crazy stuff and completely negate an encounter if they have the right spell prepared. That's not a meaningless limitation unless the players can do a lot of detailed research on the location the adventure will take place in. In practice, IME, the wizard occasionally does that and other times just cast an AoE or two and tries not to die while the fighter does the real work.

Out-of-combat, it depends on timing (rituals take a while), preparedness again (you can't prep everything) and how the dm handles skill checks. (Guy-at-the-gym thinking can make fighters un-fun).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

FWIW, there was one outlier on the low side, voting 0,1,3; but even compensating for that the numbers round to 1, 7, and 13 still.

Interesting. This would imply that Wizard gains power (approximately) 40% to 50% faster than Fighters, at least in the perspective of those who think there's a deviation. (10/7 = 1.42857..., 20/13 = 1.5385...)

Given this...perhaps lopping off the top two levels of spells and redistributing them would work, since I know you're keen on more dramatic alterations of the rules? If 8th and 9th level spells were deleted, and spells were more spread out (e.g. 1st level spells at level 1, then new spells at every multiple of 3, so third, sixth, ninth level, etc. maxing out at 7th level spells at level 18), then you'd have the equivalent power to a current 7th-level wizard (access to 4th level spells) at level (4-1)*3 = 9, making only a single level difference, and you'd reach 13th level power (access to 7th level spells) at (7-1)*3 = 18, a difference of only two levels, and not something reached by every campaign anyway.

Obviously you'd treat all full-casters the same way to make the depowering uniform. This is highly speculative so I can't be sure what all effects it would have. Perhaps the ultimate top-end spells become something you have to sink a feat into, as was done with certain powerful things in the Baldur's Gate games? I could see Wish as a feat that requires your level 19 Wizard ASI--a way to reward non-MC characters.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Interesting. This would imply that Wizard gains power (approximately) 40% to 50% faster than Fighters, at least in the perspective of those who think there's a deviation. (10/7 = 1.42857..., 20/13 = 1.5385...)

Correct. I am going to rework the numbers at 60 voters, but for now that seems to be the trend.

Given this...perhaps lopping off the top two levels of spells and redistributing them would work, since I know you're keen on more dramatic alterations of the rules? If 8th and 9th level spells were deleted, and spells were more spread out (e.g. 1st level spells at level 1, then new spells at every multiple of 3, so third, sixth, ninth level, etc. maxing out at 7th level spells at level 18), then you'd have the equivalent power to a current 7th-level wizard (access to 4th level spells) at level (4-1)*3 = 9, making only a single level difference, and you'd reach 13th level power (access to 7th level spells) at (7-1)*3 = 18, a difference of only two levels, and not something reached by every campaign anyway.

This was more my current approach, but is related. The progression below allows only cantrips at levels 1 and 2, and when you get your subclass at 3rd level (in OUR game, that is), you get your 1st level spells. You could easily shift the progression to meet more a RAW approach. If you shift it by 2 levels, it is more or less your concept I think.

The idea (again, for my group) is to truly make levels 1-2 apprentice levels, all classes get subclasses at 3rd, and then the groups become mundane/journeyman (3-8), veteran (9-14), heroic (15-20), superheroic/epic (21-30).

I would also move the most powerful spells to Level 10 spells.

 

[Lanefan]

... and is basically a walking bag of death saves. ...

Walking bag of death - that's either an undead or one hella nasty Fighter!

 

[TheSword]

Without the 11 of 40, and just counting those who feel there is a difference, the averages are closer to about 67% +/- 5% of the fighter level equals the wizard level, so 0.724, 6.656, and 12.655, with the % decreasing at higher levels.

Interesting. This would imply that Wizard gains power (approximately) 40% to 50% faster than Fighters, at least in the perspective of those who think there's a deviation. (10/7 = 1.42857..., 20/13 = 1.5385...)

Given this...

Well it’s one way of interpreting poll data… just remove anyone who disagrees with you.

I think this is probably the most stark example of confirmation bias I’ve seen on these boards for a long time

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Well it’s one way of interpreting poll data… just remove anyone who disagrees with you.

I think this is probably the most stark example of confirmation bias I’ve seen on these boards for a long time

By definition, anyone who thought that there wasn't a deviation isn't going to need or implement any corrective measures.
Therefore when designing those measures, you only take into account the people who they're actually for.

I mean . . . that's just basic triage and problem management.
When designing designing bicycles do you concentrate on the needs of cyclists over non-cyclists?
Is that the way you actually handle your own projects?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well it’s one way of interpreting poll data… just remove anyone who disagrees with you.

I think this is probably the most stark example of confirmation bias I’ve seen on these boards for a long time

You should take a few courses in poll design, analysis, and statistics.

Why do you think I reported the complete data set FIRST?

11 out of 40 voters (27.5%) voted 1, 10, 20; indicating they see no difference between fighter and wizard at those levels.

Including them, the others cause the averages to be decreased roughly 75% of the fighter level equals the wizard level, so 0.8, 7.56, and 14.68 would be the wizard levels equal to fighter levels 1, 10, and 20, respectively.

Even including the nay-sayers, the results are no where near showing there isn't an issue:

0.8 Wizard = 1 Fighter
7.56 Wizard = 10 Fighter
14.68 Wizard = 20 Fighter

And only after this, I removed the outliers (who are the ones with bias) from the poll, so I could show the unbiased results???

You have it backwards.