D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Minigiant]

It's still objectively the fighter increasing in power up until 20th level. And a lot of us love it and are fine with the fighter.

It's not though.

It's not power increase, it's versatility and endurance increases.
Again feats don't stack and you aren't supposed to double action surge in one fight if you are doing 8 encounters.

 

[Maxperson]

It's not power increase, it's versatility and endurance increases.
Again feats don't stack and you aren't supposed to double action surge in one fight if you are doing 8 encounters.

Dude. Increased damage is increased power, not versatility or endurance increases. End of story. There's no valid argument against that. And it doesn't need to be across all 8 fights to be an increase. Even one single use in one fight is an increase over the lack of that use. And it's there more increased damage than just the extra action surge.

 

[DND_Reborn]

if you are doing 8 encounters.

Other than dungeon crawls and/or infiltration missions, when does that happen really?

After all, Action Surge comes back on a Short Rest... If you do the typical 2 short rest max per long rest, that is still 3 encounters a day at that level you can double Surge.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Feats barely stack and you really can only have 2-3 in effect at a time. And you have to wait to level 17 to get a second Action surge, which you really shouldn't do in the same encounter.
So eeeeeeeeeeeeeh

The weird thing about the claim that feats are an important thing for the fighter and their extra feats are great is that once you've gone Fighter 12 then Fighter 20 gains precisely one feat over e.g. Fighter 12/Rogue 8 or Fighter 12/Barbarian 4/Wizard 4

 

[Minigiant]

Other than dungeon crawls and/or infiltration missions, when does that happen really?

After all, Action Surge comes back on a Short Rest... If you do the typical 2 short rest max per long rest, that is still 3 encounters a day at that level you can double Surge.

8 encounter a day is how WOTC keeps wizards from outdoing fighters in combat.

 

[Vaalingrade]

8 encounter a day is how WOTC keeps wizards from outdoing fighters in combat.

And makes sure none of that pesky 'story pacing' sneaks into the game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

8 encounter a day is how WOTC keeps wizards from outdoing fighters in combat.

But it doesn't really, does it?

Which is why the threads exist about helping fighters improve and/or nerfing wizards.

For example, cantrips scale at 17th level, allowing wizards (and others) to deal 4 dice of damage, but fighters don't get a 4th attack until 20th level... It makes little sense IMO because otherwise they match up (5th is 2 dice and 2 attacks, 11th is 3 dice and 3 attacks), but not that last increase. Yes, they get to surge, but with 2.5 rounds per encounter over 8 encounters you have maybe 6 surges in 20 rounds during the day. Meanwhile, by higher levels, the amount of damage dealing spells wizards have totally outstrip any damage a fighter might do.

And, of course, as I said, unless you are dungeon crawling or doing an infiltration mission, IME you rarely come even remotely close to 8 encounters a day.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But it doesn't really, does it?

Which is why the threads exist about helping fighters improve and/or nerfing wizards.

For example, cantrips scale at 17th level, allowing wizards (and others) to deal 4 dice of damage, but fighters don't get a 4th attack until 20th level... It makes little sense IMO because otherwise they match up (5th is 2 dice and 2 attacks, 11th is 3 dice and 3 attacks), but not that last increase. Yes, they get to surge, but with 2.5 rounds per encounter over 8 encounters you have maybe 6 surges in 20 rounds during the day. Meanwhile, by higher levels, the amount of damage dealing spells wizards have totally outstrip any damage a fighter might do.

And, of course, as I said, unless you are dungeon crawling or doing an infiltration mission, IME you rarely come even remotely close to 8 encounters a day.

I would love to find a way to reduce the needed number of combats for attrition, without eliminating the concept completely. There has to be a happy medium. Why WotC hard-coded at 6-8 encounters a day I swear I don't know.

 

[HammerMan]

8 encounter a day is how WOTC keeps wizards from outdoing fighters in combat.

even at 8 encounters a day wizards still spend more then half there rounds using 3rd+ level spells...

8 encounters 2 short rest so lets say 3 encounters rest, 3 encounters rest 2 encounters call it a day.

at 20th level the wizard has 5 scaled cantrips (so either 4d10, or a lower die code with an effect) and 4 1st level spells (plus 1 turned into a cantrip/at will) 3 2nd level (plus 1 turned into a cantrip/at will) 3 3rd level spells (plus two that you can do 1/day each for free) 3 4th level spells 3 5th level spells, 2 sixth level spells 2 7th level spells 1 8th level spell and 1 wish... I mean 9th level spell sorry don't know how I made that mistake.

you then have 10 levels you can recall of spells that are level 5 or lower (so 2 5th, or a 4th and 2 3rd, or any other combo)

if we assume you are not novaing out and just speed blitzing your highest spell every encounter, and encounters average 4 rounds of combat here is what that looks like (remember I said average 4 maybe 1 goes to 6 but one ends before your second turn) and these are ofcourse rounds you CAN take actions so again average, cause maybe you spend a round stunned or something this is 20th level after all..

now in another thread I just did fireball (not the most optimal choice of spells) and said you can throw 20 of them... but lets not count WHAT spell I mean sometimes you will have optimal choices sometimes you will have bad choices and sometimes you will just make a mistake...

right off the bat you have 2/2/1/1 so of those 8 encounters 6 of them you can use a 6th level or higher spell if you limit yourself to 1 per encounter. I will spread those out and say you use 1 every encounter for the first 3, after your first rest you slow down and spend only 2 on your next 3 and the final one in one of the last 2 encounters... in each group of encounters you have a big 'shenagins' spell... but not every encounter.

for level 5 and lower spells I will say you use your arcane recover to recover 1 4th and 2 3rd (not unreasonable) so out of first 3 encounters I will use those... 1 4th and 2 3rd

so we start off at 12 rounds of me acting over 3 encounters in the morning... I use 3 high level spells... I use 1 5th 1 4th and 4 3rd (remember 2 of those are free) that leaves me 3 actions to either defualt to cantrips or other at wills or use a 2nd or 1st level spell..

after lunch hour I am still going strong and I have 12 more rounds of me acting in combat over 3 encounters.... I use 2 high level spells I use 1 5th level spell and I can reuse my 1 4th and 2 3rd (since I arcane recovered them) so I will add 1 more 4th level spell in and have 5 rounds left to use at wills or 1st and 2nd level spells

so last two encounters after dinner break and I have my 8 rounds 2 high level spells and 1 5th level spell left and for those last 5 rounds of actions I have 1 4th level spell, then I am for those last 4 rounds stuck with low level spells..

now low level spells can still be hold person (2nd) that can be at will that can be devistating. Heck Tasha's Laugh can knock out a monster with a 1st level spell that fails a save and saves are not spell level based anymore. that is before we count crazy things like mage armor lasting all day and shield can become atwill (so for the cost of 1 1st level slot and your reaction you can have 10+dex bonus to your AC in a game where a 20 AC is awesome).

This also doesn't count the times that useing normal cantrips is just a GREAT option... against a hoard of smaller threats blasting for 4dX (maybe with an effect) is pretty awesome and useing a 3rd+ level spell could be over kill... now you will target 1 monster and the fighter will on average do the same damage in 2 hits and have 4 attacks so can take down 2 to your 1 so hey... that is a cool moment for the fighter while you hold back and let him handle your light work...

that also assumes we are just worring about combat. What about a day where those 8 encounters are 2 exploration, 1 social, and 5 combat... I mean yeah those 5 combats the warrior has more HP and AC and hits harder per hit (unless it is a high level spell round) but in the 2 exploration and 1 social encounter you have auto win buttons he doesn't (yes if you know/prep them) and if you choose not to use them you both have skills, and RP to fall back on.

The day that you have to do the reverse though is a BAD day for fighter/wizard comparisons... have 3 social encounters and 2 exploration encounters and only 3 combats and that fighter only has 3 fights and the wizard CAN drop some or all of there high shenagins spells on them...

A travel day (as early as 9th level) can already be a blah day for a fighter... 1-2 random encounters plus some exploration for a class that needs a drawn out set of encounters and has little to nothing the others don't have for exploration...

edit: I just remembered it's 6-8 encounters... man, the 6 encounter day where even 1 is not combat is going to REALLY feel lopsided.

 

[HammerMan]

And makes sure none of that pesky 'story pacing' sneaks into the game.

I know... imagine if the PCs are in a town and they leave it to travel to face the dragon, and the dragon doesn't have 7 lead up smaller encounters to force the players down... I mean even 3 sets of guards isn't enough.