D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[FrogReaver]

Right because certain people want to keep holding up a paper mask and saying " but look, they aren't really human, you can't be mad because we made them up. We aren't talking about you, your just reading too far into things."

"Now lets go kill some savage brutes who are squatting on that land that clearly should be civilized and have a city built on it."

We can’t have a conversation when you are being dismissive to the alternate position - “paper mask”

 

[FrogReaver]

Or, if somebody doesn't want to do the research, I'd be ok with them saying, "Really? Gosh, I didn't realize this was a problem. But, you know what, there are people who continue to face daily systemic racism of a sort that I will never in my life experience. If even some of them tell me there's a problem with how orcs are portrayed, which they think is hurtful language that may perpetuate racism, I'm ok with tweaking my hobby about make-believe elves and dragons. Not kicking and screaming and crying about it is pretty much the very least thing I could do."

But instead poster after poster gets on here to pontificate about how the problem isn't really the problem, it's this other problem, the solution to which happily involves other people changing their perceptions, and doesn't require even the most minor of inconveniences to themselves.

Worldview difference. Understand it and believe it. Your very actions and words here show those of other worldviews just how right their worldview is. When you go to calling us names and bad people and effectively “deplorables” you end up alienating us to anything you say.

When you balk at arguments that make Perfect sense in our worldview then you’ve already lost the debate. All you can do at that point is score points with those of your worldview.

 

[Remathilis]

Dude, this isn't his day job.

We are on this site to discuss, but none of us want to spend every hour of the day constantly rehashing the same information. It has been what, two or three weeks of this discussion? I fully understand that people are getting tired of having to go and explain the exact same information again and again and again.

Heck, I am a substitute teacher, but even I know that you don't spend three weeks in social studies class talking about the same unit. You move on.

Former teacher here. You move on when all who want to learn have learned. You provide guidance on where to look or a good title or topic to search for. You won't get 100% participation. In this case a simple "check post xxx" or "read this link" might suffice.

Telling someone to Google it is a kiss-off, at best someone is going to say "#$&* that" and disengage, at worst they might reinforce opinions contrary to what you wanted.

If you're really tired of repeating yourself, simply do not respond to the query and let someone else (as happened below) take up the burden. You still have the right to remain silent if you wish.

But nothing turns your audience against you faster than a feeling of "I already figured it out, you're on your own."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I have kinda lost track of who argues for what in all these ork threads, but the fact remains that the the general idea of what orcs are has shifted. Due them being sympathetic and playable in popular computer games such as WoW most people no longer see them as Tolkien-style monsters. People want to play orks, they want the orks to be represented as nuanced real people. So that's what D&D should do.

 

[FrogReaver]

I have kinda lost track of who argues for what in all these ork threads, but the fact remains that the the general idea of what orcs are has shifted. Due them being sympathetic and playable in popular computer games such as WoW most people no longer see them as Tolkien-style monsters. People want to play orks, they want the orks to be represented as nuanced real people. So that's what D&D should do.

That’s not really what’s happening here.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That’s not really what’s happening here.

What is happening here then? I think that it is at least among the things that are happening here...

 

[dave2008]

The floating +2, +1 would bother me. I don't care to cap stats, but races are built differently and should excel in different areas as a race. Individuals can be exceptions to that, but it should be a noteworthy exception. I dislike homogeneity with a passion, and moving to a floating +2, +1 for all PC races as a rather huge step in that direction.

I want to be able to play a immensely strong dwarven fighter, because dwarves are strong. I want to be able to buck the racial norm and play a mountain dwarf wizard with a +2 Str bonus and +2 con, just to be the black sheep of the family. A floating +2, +1 prevents me from being able to do that.

I guess a disagree a bit. I am fine with general floating bonuses to races. They represent how your PC is different than the typical member of your race. However, I think certain exception races should have special bonuses or penalties. I just wouldn't include: humans, orcs, dwarves, elves, halflings, etc. as those exception races.

This way you can play a strong dwarf because they are strong and I can play a strong dwarf because they are short with great endurance (I've never attributed great strength to dwarves personally).

 

[Oofta]

There is a fundamental problem with this approach though, something that I encountered in 4e and see no way around.

Half-Orcs.

I've told this story a few times in these discussions, but I had a player come to me during a 4e game, after session Zero, and express extreme discomfort with a fellow party member's Half-Orc fighter. Not for anything that PC had done, or was planned to be, but because the first player had been interested and read the lore in the PHB 2, and immediately picked up on the rape themes. It made them incredibly uncomfortable, and the solution I found was pretty simple, but cuts right through this idea that orcs should be savage evil killers.

We can't go back in time and redo 4E. If we could I wouldn't stop at the rape theme. With 5E, they've taken it out.

So what's the issue with 5E orcs?

See, the problem with your view here is that you are assuming that the problem is specifically skin tone.

White vs non-white is not the issue.

"human" vs "lesser and more brutish version of human" is the issue.
...

Have they really changed that much from earlier editions to now? They all seem to be written in a very similar vein to me.
...

Many people claim orcs are PoC. You're claiming they're indigenous people. Then you wonder why people have a problem pinpointing what the real problem is? Because if we have a monster that has any correlation to humans, it seems like some people have issues with any negative language being used. Then you go on to criticize a style of play which is only tangentially related because you are the arbiter of what is acceptable and not.

So that's the problem. People keep saying "it's been a problem for a long time" and "look at Tolkien's letter written in the middle of the 20th century" followed by a lot of things that are not in the current edition. Oh, and point to articles that associate orcs to whatever "other" people are being demonized at that point in time.

If we always pull in historical references and don't limit the argument to the current version of the game , I see no solution. The only option seems to be effectively eliminating orcs from the game.

 

[Maxperson]

Seriously? Because it's +2/+1 instead of +2/+2 you wouldn't be able to play the character you want? Waiting until level 4 to get that extra point in Con would ruin the concept for you?

Re-read my entire post, because that's not at all what I am saying.

 

[Maxperson]

I guess a disagree a bit. I am fine with general floating bonuses to races. They represent how your PC is different than the typical member of your race. However, I think certain exception races should have special bonuses or penalties. I just wouldn't include: humans, orcs, dwarves, elves, halflings, etc. as those exception races.

You achieve "different from the typical member of your race" simply by being above an 11 in a stat(13 and 12 for the +2, +1). Giving a floating +2, +1 enables better than any other member of your race that isn't a PC. Dwarves would have a maximum intelligence of 18, unless you are a PC or special DM NPC, which would give you a starting maximum of 20 int.

If you remove the dex bonus from elves and halflings, strength from orcs, general bonus across the board for humans, etc., you are taking away a good chunk of what makes them different from one another.

@Elfcrusher Dave understood what I was saying.