D&D 5E What needs to be fixed in 5E?

[KidSnide]

Really the main thing from the perspective of the DM is to try to insure that not ALL party members can fly around extensively all the time. Notice though that most characters don't easily get teleport either, though some do get it for free too. I don't think the 4e designers were stupid. They understood the issue there. It IS easy to get flying, at paragon, if you want it. You missed some items and other tricks too, like figurines, carpets, etc.

I think you're right, in the sense that it is a little easier to break encounters with a fly ability than it is with a teleport ability. So, to a certain extent, the 4e designers made a correct observation that they could introduce a bunch of short-range combat teleportation as an interesting tactical option.

The problem is that "lots of easy short-range teleport" doesn't match my fantasy world. Years of playing with the 1e-3e spell list has taught me that teleport is higher level than fly. I'm not sure that assumption is arbitrary, as I think imitating nature seems "easier magically", but even if it is arbitrary it was a part of D&D for decades.

It's an example of the 4e designers placing the quality of the tactical game over backwards-compatibility in game world. I don't think I can categorically say that backwards-compatibility in game world assumptions is more important than the quality of the tactical game. (Both are important.) But I do think the 4e designers didn't give enough weight to the importance of letting people play 4e in their existing gameworlds without changing quite so many assumptions.

-KS

 

[KarinsDad]

Flying can certainly break encounters.

There are a lot of Daily powers that can break an encounter. Fly isn't even on the radar of being a great encounter breaking Daily power. A good power, sure. But not encounter breaking. It needs a lot of help via other powers to break an encounter and those other powers still work without fly.

The difference with longer term fly options is that things as simple as ranged attacks, dazed, prone, stunned, killing a mount, etc. can stop it from doing anything at all, let alone break an encounter.

Even walking into another room and bolting the door can negate Fly. Having a 10 foot tall room can negate Fly. At Paragon when flight starts showing up, having a larger creature and a slightly larger room will negate flight as well.

It's just not nearly as potent, useful, or common as you seem to think. Teleport, on the other hand, is all over the place. There are over 400 powers that either allow a character to teleport, or affect teleports in some way. That's about 1 power in 21. Everybody and his brother (except Martial Power source) has one or more teleports. Clerics can teleport. Paladins can teleport. Rangers can teleport.

It's everywhere.

Very few classes have flight.

For those rare PCs that can fly longer term, the DM has many options to neutralize it. The same is not true of teleport. Short term teleport is more of a threat than longer term fly (or shorter term fly) because it's very difficult for a DM to neutralize it. Stunned or some type of mental restraint are about it. And anything that will negate teleport (except a few rare magics) will negate fly. Plus, a lot of other things will negate fly.

You've already admitted that short term fly is nowhere near as useful as short term teleport.

OTOH really unless you want to try slasher cheese that is now nerfed, you aren't going to WIN encounters with teleportation, not very often.

Sorry, but this is blatantly false.

I've seen Swordmages and Assassins nova half of an encounter in a few rounds with teleport, the rest of the encounter being cleanup. When you can place your PC anywhere on the board and none of the foes can react to it (most of the time), you control the combat.

Granted, teleport cannot do it on its own (although I've seen Dimensional Scramble crush foes by dropping them over edges). But, it opens up the entire board for things like combat advantage, bursts, and blasts.

In fact, I'm positive that Lair Assault nerfed teleport precisely because it is so common and so useful. It's a very common level 5 way past traps, so it had to be penalized.


Going back to the original point of this, Teleport is typically lower level, more common, and has more utility than fly. That's backwards. Stronger and more useful effects should be less common and higher level than weaker effects.

 

[KarinsDad]

You missed some items and other tricks too, like figurines, carpets, etc.

A flying carpet? -2 to AC and Reflex, and 300 pounds makes it fall. Not a serious combat option.

Ditto for figurines. Figurines can also be "killed". Mounts are way better than figurines.

A 25th level Coral Dragon Figurine has 30 hit points. Epic level NPCs can kill a Coral Dragon in their sleep. Even temp hit points don't make this a via combat option.


Note: I do see where long term flying can overcome a skill challenge, but not a combat encounter.

 

[Ryujin]

Sorry, but this is blatantly false.

I've seen Swordmages and Assassins nova half of an encounter in a few rounds with teleport, the rest of the encounter being cleanup. When you can place your PC anywhere on the board and none of the foes can react to it (most of the time), you control the combat.

Granted, teleport cannot do it on its own (although I've seen Dimensional Scramble crush foes by dropping them over edges). But, it opens up the entire board for things like combat advantage, bursts, and blasts.

In fact, I'm positive that Lair Assault nerfed teleport precisely because it is so common and so useful. It's a very common level 5 way past traps, so it had to be penalized.


Going back to the original point of this, Teleport is typically lower level, more common, and has more utility than fly. That's backwards. Stronger and more useful effects should be less common and higher level than weaker effects.

It also depends on what your victory conditions are for the encounter. I came pretty close to maximizing teleport distances, with my Feylock, and we 'won' an encounter simply because I could burn two teleport powers, to get to a release lever a couple of levels above. This was in an encounter involving winding ramps, that we were supposed to have to fight our way through.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Right, but UEONT flight or levitation, etc would work in the same situations. KD IMHO is just wrong about the overall utility factor. Tactiport is a bit better than walking or 'fly for a move', but the range is usually too short to break things, and the vast majority of encounters won't really notice the difference either. There are a billion-and-a-half ways to get around OAs, and that's the main function of tactiport. Flying can put you in a spot where you can't be attacked, which is something you cannot otherwise achieve most of the time, AND it has many of the tactical advantages of tactiport.

As for the 'flavor' thing... Well, what can anyone say? It is neither here nor there. Yes it is a bit different from AD&D etc. Each edition throws out some slightly different twist on things. If they simply all had to produce exactly the same perfectly consistent in-game results we'd still be playing OD&D. I've run the same campaign world since the 1970's (yeah, I have maps made by 12 yr old me, from before D&D came out when we had to make our own rules). I don't see a massive inconsistency that prevents me from using it with 4e. Sure, some minor details of how some tactical combat would have worked in different rules maybe changed. Nobody is going back and rerunning adventures we did at age 14 with 4e rules. The core world assumptions really haven't changed that much. The world wasn't a terribly logical extrapolation of the D&D rules of that day and it probably isn't a terribly logical extrapolation of 4e rules either, but IMHO trying to do that is the way of madness anyhow.

I guess my point is I don't think tactiport needs to be blown away for some obscure flavor reason. Its fun and it works, and it isn't even close to breaking anything. Flying was never THAT easy to get even in 2e really either, unless the DM wanted it to be. Not super hard, but also not something you usually picked up before you could cast 3rd or 4th level spells. It is still variable and somewhat DM dependent in 4th too, so I don't think it is all that different. Honestly, if anything, the 4e designers spent a lot more time thinking about the world implications of magical effects than anyone ever did in previous editions. I really appreciated that. In fact it has been one of the more satisfying aspects of 4e overall.

 

[Gortle]

.

Yes I definitely miss the flavour of the old editions. I don't miss the mechanics.

 

[Tymophil]

Yes I definitely miss the flavour of the old editions. I don't miss the mechanics.

What do you mean by he flavour?

For me, flavour seems to be given by scenario and Gamemaster styles. If there is something missing in the aspect of the game, then all you have to do is design adventures suitable to your favourite flavour and Gamemaster them in a tasteful way.

There is no need for a new edition, even more because the old style mechanics are not missed. But, I guess some new mechanics altered the flavour somehow. Don't you think?

 

[Fanaelialae]

IMO, teleportation is slightly better than one-round flight.

However, flight wins hands down if it's duration is longer than one round. Complete immunity from melee powers? Yes please!

Sure, flight has it's drawbacks. Certain conditions can send you plummeting back to earth. Unless you're fighting something with reach though, you only need to hover 20 feet over the ground. Would I take complete melee immunity in exchange for the possibility that my mid-level character might suffer 2d10 damage? Hell yeah!

Each has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages. Teleport renders one immune to OAs, unlike many flight powers. Flight can overcome obstacles that most teleport powers can't. 10 foot wall in your way? Sorry, teleport-guy, you don't have LOS. Flying-guy can just fly over it.

Even with trap avoidance, teleportation and flight have about the same utility (unless your trap is triggered by a heist-movie laser grid).

I don't think there's anything wrong with making both teleport and short-term flight available at low levels. Each has advantages and disadvantages the other does not. Longer term flight and being able to teleport groups/enemies, on the other hand, is definitely higher level.

 

[Ryujin]

Right, but UEONT flight or levitation, etc would work in the same situations. KD IMHO is just wrong about the overall utility factor. Tactiport is a bit better than walking or 'fly for a move', but the range is usually too short to break things, and the vast majority of encounters won't really notice the difference either. There are a billion-and-a-half ways to get around OAs, and that's the main function of tactiport. Flying can put you in a spot where you can't be attacked, which is something you cannot otherwise achieve most of the time, AND it has many of the tactical advantages of tactiport.

As for the 'flavor' thing... Well, what can anyone say? It is neither here nor there. Yes it is a bit different from AD&D etc. Each edition throws out some slightly different twist on things. If they simply all had to produce exactly the same perfectly consistent in-game results we'd still be playing OD&D. I've run the same campaign world since the 1970's (yeah, I have maps made by 12 yr old me, from before D&D came out when we had to make our own rules). I don't see a massive inconsistency that prevents me from using it with 4e. Sure, some minor details of how some tactical combat would have worked in different rules maybe changed. Nobody is going back and rerunning adventures we did at age 14 with 4e rules. The core world assumptions really haven't changed that much. The world wasn't a terribly logical extrapolation of the D&D rules of that day and it probably isn't a terribly logical extrapolation of 4e rules either, but IMHO trying to do that is the way of madness anyhow.

I guess my point is I don't think tactiport needs to be blown away for some obscure flavor reason. Its fun and it works, and it isn't even close to breaking anything. Flying was never THAT easy to get even in 2e really either, unless the DM wanted it to be. Not super hard, but also not something you usually picked up before you could cast 3rd or 4th level spells. It is still variable and somewhat DM dependent in 4th too, so I don't think it is all that different. Honestly, if anything, the 4e designers spent a lot more time thinking about the world implications of magical effects than anyone ever did in previous editions. I really appreciated that. In fact it has been one of the more satisfying aspects of 4e overall.

I don't think that teleport needs to be done away with, either, but my playing experience tells me that flight and teleport are pretty much on par. Different, with different times and means of utility, but essentially equal in power.

At level 20 I had managed at will teleport 5 (move), teleport 7 when an enemy dropped (though in practise I found it more useful to add to Darkspiral Aura instead), Teleport 15/standard (encounter), swap with an ally teleport 14, teleport 12 (move/daily), and insubstantial/fly 6 (daily). The insubstantial flying got the least use as it precluded standard actions. Really only useful for escape, or tactical positioning in an extreme situation.

I found that teleport gave me the ability to achieve a tactical position, with limited attack responses, in maybe 1/3 encounters.

 

[Viking Bastard]

For me, flavour seems to be given by scenario and Gamemaster styles. If there is something missing in the aspect of the game, then all you have to do is design adventures suitable to your favourite flavour and Gamemaster them in a tasteful way.

Sure. But the assumptions and fluff of each edition impact the flavor of the game, especially if you're a new player. You read this-works-so and that-does-this and it trickles into your game.

And there are flavors to mechanics, too.