D&D 5E What Should The 5E Cleric Look Like?

[GMforPowergamers]

Kiss

I want one class with different builds that can be specialist priests.

I think an essential 4e war priest mixed with spheres from 2e


Infact I think spheres could be the whole divine power source thing

 

[Aldarc]

This is true. However, 3e included an option that clerics could gain power either from a specific deity or by worshipping some vague ideal. There's definitely different ways for clerics to gain power some of the time, if not in every setting.

While clerics can differ in their playstyle due to the god(s) they choose, I would rather have clerics play differently in their choices independent of deity. I would much rather have a clear vision of what the cleric does.

Fighters have extensive arms and armor training that allows them to extensively fight with their brawn. Rogues prefer light armor, less weapon training, using skills and cunning to overcome obstacles. Wizards use the minds, complex spells, magical knowledge, and arcane lore over brawn and arms training. And clerics worship gods, but we can't tell you what else they do or how they do it until they pick their deity.

Like I said, you could cover the different types of what we think of as clerics through multiple classes. But then you need several distinct base classes tied to divine power.

So should paladins and other divine classes be wildly different dependent on their gods? If not, then why is it just clerics that this seems to be the rule?

I'd rather see one flexible cleric than several different clerics, but it's certainly not the only way to go.

And this gets to the design philosophy of the class: what is a cleric?

 

[Gilladian]

I think that what I would like to see is the following:

1.) a cleric class with the flexibility to be adjusted to a certain degree by choosing different spheres or domains (I liked spheres better than domains, really) and weapons/armor, special abilities, etc...

AND
2) a clear statement from the writers of the rules that OTHER classes can be "priests" of various gods. IE if a paladin calls himself a "priest" and takes on the role of spiritual advisor to a community in the name of his god, that's FINE. He can run a temple. So can an "expert" in 3rd edition terms. All it takes is the acceptance of the god's tenets, and the willingness of the community to call on the person.

Clerics are a very specific type of "priest", who choose to be adventurers, and thus all have SOME similarities, no matter what god they follow. NOT because of their faith, but because of their daily activities. Just like not all thieves are great at dungeoneering, but most adventuring Rogues are...(at least in the campaigns I've run/played in).

 

[Ahnehnois]

So should paladins and other divine classes be wildly different dependent on their gods? If not, then why is it just clerics that this seems to be the rule?

Yes.

And this gets to the design philosophy of the class: what is a cleric?

Other than "a guy who gains his magic by woshipping a divine power", I don't think there's anything that's definitional to a cleric. Some are melee combatants, some pacifists. Some are healers, some lead undead armies. No matter what interpretation of the mechanics you go with, cleric is conceptually a very diverse class.

 

[DM Howard]

I want armored warpriests who can pray their hammer deeper into the dragon's skull.

I want cloth-wearing miracle workers whom the gods protect from harm and whose words carry the force of the divine.

Options, man! I want options!

I agree! I want both of these ideas to be available under the term Cleric because they both are indeed Clerics.

 

[Ainamacar]

But I can't think of a reason for the cleric class to even exist that doesn't begin with "because someone has to heal".

To explore how a higher power interacts with devoted followers. To explore themes of religious devotion, community, and conflict. To explore the distinctions between the gods, and why those distinctions may actually matter in the setting. To ensure that characters for whom the deity is the single most important aspect of their existence can interact with the world in the unique manner that conviction demands. To mechanically explore the implications of the above, by means mundane or magical, given a thematically distinct source (whether that is pure faith, the largesse of a higher power, or even the manipulations of a third party).

In short, to make sure that somewhere in the game "deity" isn't just a line on a character sheet. The traditional role of the cleric as the sole healer is a weakness or possibly charming quirk of the game, but its the people who play them for other reasons that ensure healing is not their sole raison d'être.

 

[FireLance]

To explore how a higher power interacts with devoted followers. To explore themes of religious devotion, community, and conflict. To explore the distinctions between the gods, and why those distinctions may actually matter in the setting. To ensure that characters for whom the deity is the single most important aspect of their existence can interact with the world in the unique manner that conviction demands. To mechanically explore the implications of the above, by means mundane or magical, given a thematically distinct source (whether that is pure faith, the largesse of a higher power, or even the manipulations of a third party).

These are fine issues to explore in play, but none of them actually require a cleric class. They could just as well be done by a character of any class with a religious background and training. Special powers could be obtained through the expenditure of feats or other character customization options such as themes.

 

[Aldarc]

Yes.

Other than "a guy who gains his magic by woshipping a divine power", I don't think there's anything that's definitional to a cleric. Some are melee combatants, some pacifists. Some are healers, some lead undead armies. No matter what interpretation of the mechanics you go with, cleric is conceptually a very diverse class.

And I don't think that's enough to justify the existence of a class.

I find the below to be problematic from a design perspective:

Fighters have extensive arms and armor training that allows them to extensively fight with their brawn. Rogues prefer light armor, less weapon training, using skills and cunning to overcome obstacles. Wizards use the minds, complex spells, magical knowledge, and arcane lore over brawn and arms training. And clerics worship gods, but we can't tell you what else they do or how they do it until they pick their deity.

A cleric is conceptually nicheless!

To explore how a higher power interacts with devoted followers. To explore themes of religious devotion, community, and conflict. To explore the distinctions between the gods, and why those distinctions may actually matter in the setting. To ensure that characters for whom the deity is the single most important aspect of their existence can interact with the world in the unique manner that conviction demands. To mechanically explore the implications of the above, by means mundane or magical, given a thematically distinct source (whether that is pure faith, the largesse of a higher power, or even the manipulations of a third party).

In short, to make sure that somewhere in the game "deity" isn't just a line on a character sheet. The traditional role of the cleric as the sole healer is a weakness or possibly charming quirk of the game, but its the people who play them for other reasons that ensure healing is not their sole raison d'être.

All of which can be done completely without clerics.

 

[CleanCutRogue]

What should the 5e Cleric look like?

Sean Connery.

 

[Keldryn]

At the time, I loved the way that 2e had different spell lists, granted powers, and allowed weapons and armor depending on which deity they served.

I have long since changed my mind. Many of these specialty priests were terribly ineffective in adventuring parties ("what, you're a cleric and you can't heal or turn undead?").

Frankly a lot of them didn't make much sense from a world-building perspective either. So clerics of the God of Magic can use daggers and staves, can't wear armor, and have fewer hit points, but can cast some spells normally restricted to magic-users? Hmmm...

I see the cleric class as a holy warrior. They're well-trained in combat because they are the ones who are chosen or destined to actively defend and promote their faith, by force of arms if necessary. The gift of wielding divine power is too precious to waste one someone hanging around the safety of the church all of the time.

This concept of a cleric works very well with the approach to religion taken in the Eberron setting. The dominant religion is The Sovereign Host (the nine good and neutral/unaligned gods), and the overwhelming majority of people worship the Host as a pantheon rather than individually. It makes sense that a cleric of the Church of the Sovereign Host would have the abilities attributed to the traditional D&D cleric, as they don't serve such a narrowly-defined portfolio as "lightning" or "love." Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous uses a similar paradigm, where The Great Church encompasses all of the good and neutral gods of the world (although each does have their own smaller, specialized church).

Come to think of it, GAZ1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (1987) also had a similar setup, with the Church of Traladara venerating the three Traladaran heroes who ascended to immortality, and the loosely-Catholicism-based Church of Thyatis worshiped a different group of immortals.

I think that this approach works best for a lower-complexity core game. There's no laundry list of a couple dozen gods (with often ridiculously narrow areas of influence) for players to have to deliberate over during character creation, and it allows for a versatile cleric class that has some in-world justification for its abilities.

Additional "modules" could include rules for building clerics who serve a single deity, including modifying their spell lists and granted powers to be more thematically appropriate. I love the church-of-a-pantheon approach and I think it works better for the game and from a world-building perspective, but the approach of 2nd Edition is equally valid and should exist for those who want it and the added complexity.