D&D 5E What Should The 5E Cleric Look Like?

Ainamacar

Adventurer
These are fine issues to explore in play, but none of them actually require a cleric class. They could just as well be done by a character of any class with a religious background and training. Special powers could be obtained through the expenditure of feats or other character customization options such as themes.

All of which can be done completely without clerics.

And all of which can be done with clerics. It's immaterial to my post, which was not about whether the cleric class is necessary, but whether it is pointless without healing. I mean, we could explore all themes and niches without classes -- plenty of games are designed that way. So if the best way to address cleric-like concepts is without classes, then by all means we should do so, but that's not what I was addressing.

That said, I think it's a given that 5e will have classes in some form, and it's worthwhile to think about what potential forms might provide. As I see it D&D classes generally do two principle things: they define the most basic elements of what a character does (or a range of what can be done), and they define a progression or structure for how they do more things. Both elements are important, and if either one is unique or strong the class may achieve interesting things.

Here's an example character format for 5e and how the cleric could look in it as a class rather than just a set of generic abilities.

Perhaps characters select a class and two themes. I envision themes as bundles of character options which grant an ability when first taken, and can be used to shape the character via its class over time. They can be cultural backgrounds, multi-classing options, racial progressions, professions, acquired templates, etc. By gaining one or two more over the course of the game they can also be the equivalent of prestige classes or paragon paths.

Now, in this vision classes are like scaffolding placed on top of themes which determine the structure and progression of the entire character, and fully embody the theme's major ability. Every class has at least one associated theme to enable subclassing and multiclassing, although not every theme has a class. Still, for people who want to play the Elf class, this is how it gets done.

Finally, every theme contributes to a character's proficiencies (or equivalent), skill list (or equivalent), hit points, and so on. That is, these are no longer a function of classes per se. Characters start as a fairly integrated version of their themes. I suppose this is closest to 4e hybrids, but even more general.

Supposing that spell spheres exist, the cleric might look as follows:

Ability: Divine spell casting (some method of spell resource progression and management)
Ability: Divine spell access (a spell list made from all your deity's spheres. Perhaps most characters gain spell access one sphere at a time by taking an appropriate theme).
Ability: Miracle (occasional access to level-appropriate spells, rituals, or minor arbitrary effects that are otherwise unavailable).
Ability: Sphere Focus (This one might not even be necessary, or better as options taken later in the class. It might include things like bonus spell access, easier miracles, etc. for spheres taken as themes.)
Class theme: Any single theme for any of your deity's spheres, or a theme specific to your deity.

Then some table of ability progression. This needn't be the same for every class, and I imagine most of the cleric's will involve gaining abilities from sphere themes (just like anyone with one of these themes) as well as gaining abilities which interact with spheres in surprising or powerful ways.

I think something similar to this might be better than a totally generic way of approaching religious characters using only themes. Yes, the sphere themes are flexible and can be taken by anyone, but the class makes it a value-added operation and adds shape to the character, despite the relatively few shared class features.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
And all of which can be done with clerics. It's immaterial to my post, which was not about whether the cleric class is necessary, but whether it is pointless without healing. I mean, we could explore all themes and niches without classes -- plenty of games are designed that way. So if the best way to address cleric-like concepts is without classes, then by all means we should do so, but that's not what I was addressing.
You were responding to a post in someone said that a cleric's existence as a class is justified simply due to "healing."* If what you said is the only thing that a cleric has going for it, and those are things that can all be done by other classes, then what's the point of the cleric?

* I agree with this sentiment. I believe the cleric has generally been used in D&D not so much as an archetype or a proper class, but as a player-operated crutch mechanic and band-aid that keeps the rest of the party going.

That said, I think it's a given that 5e will have classes in some form, and it's worthwhile to think about what potential forms might provide. As I see it D&D classes generally do two principle things: they define the most basic elements of what a character does (or a range of what can be done), and they define a progression or structure for how they do more things. Both elements are important, and if either one is unique or strong the class may achieve interesting things.
Well yes, and only confirmed class so far is the cleric, which the ENWorld playtesters mentioned. I may respond to the rest of your post when I have a chance. (I want some time to look it over a bit more closely.)
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I have always preferred tight, focused classes, which is probably one reason I preferred 4e, though classes started to smear with essentials.

I think with classes an initial design choice needs to be made between a few broad classes that are very customisable or a lot of specialised classes. While I prefer the latter by far, I do think that design should go one way or the other as mixing and matching is even more of a balance nightmare.

I think there should be a core warcleric in the base book with a clear identity and function that isnt "bandaid". I think "speciality priests" that drift far from the base concept should be modelled, maybe in a later module, by the class they are closest to, with a theme or background to reflect their priestly vocation. After all, in Faiths and avatars, wizards could be priests of Mystra, rangers could be priests of Mielikki etc etc.

I dislke broad classes because they are a balance nightmare, they make class names useless from the point of view of knowing what the PC can do, and they encourage the idea that arbitrary class X can be good at anything. YMMV
 

Ainamacar

Adventurer
You were responding to a post in someone said that a cleric's existence as a class is justified simply due to "healing."* If what you said is the only thing that a cleric has going for it, and those are things that can all be done by other classes, then what's the point of the cleric?

* I agree with this sentiment. I believe the cleric has generally been used in D&D not so much as an archetype or a proper class, but as a player-operated crutch mechanic and band-aid that keeps the rest of the party going.

The sorts of things I listed, mainly areas of mechanical and conceptual exploration, are the only things *any* class (heck, any part of a game with rules) has going for it. The argument that the *idea* of clerics as classes is pointless (without healing) because one can do everything (but healing) without them is no more valid than the argument that the *idea* of classes as a whole is pointless, because one can do everything without them. (Both are suspect in any case because classes provide structure which can cause emergent properties that might not appear in practice with a generic system. And vice versa, of course.) If no compelling implementation of the cleric class can possibly exist, or all possible implementations are less compelling than a generic treatment, I'll concede. But that is too broad a claim for me to take very seriously.

I'm more sympathetic to the argument that existing implementations are pointless without healing. (Perhaps that is all that you mean to convey, in which case I apologize for tasking past you!) I happen to disagree. I find the cleric to be a versatile and compelling archetype, probably my favorite in the game along with the sorcerer, with mediocre implementations despite some elements I truly enjoy.

Well yes, and only confirmed class so far is the cleric, which the ENWorld playtesters mentioned. I may respond to the rest of your post when I have a chance. (I want some time to look it over a bit more closely.)

Ah, I forgot that the cleric had been confirmed! :) Whether or not you care for my cleric proposal, I hope you'll at least find the take on themes and character design interesting.

Cheers!
 

Aldarc

Legend
I find the cleric to be a versatile and compelling archetype, probably my favorite in the game along with the sorcerer, with mediocre implementations despite some elements I truly enjoy.
Whereas the warrior, mage, and rogue (the "classic triune" of RPGs) have much clearer visions conceptually (not mechanically, mind you), the cleric seems all over the place. And mechanically, it has been used as a walking band-aid for the rest of the party. That's why I think the cleric needs something of a clearer conceptual vision of its archetype.

Ah, I forgot that the cleric had been confirmed! :) Whether or not you care for my cleric proposal, I hope you'll at least find the take on themes and character design interesting.

Cheers!
I do find them interesting, but it's a matter of conceptualizing how it would work in my head.
 

Stormonu

Legend
8th & 9th level spells should have never been given to Clerics back in 3E. That was a big mistake. Their spells were capped at 7th level for a reason; they were in essence, a hybrid fighter/mage.

Likewise, if the game goes back to spell lists, the Cleric should have a limit of how many spells they can possibly draw from per spell level or it's equivalent, say on the order of 12-15. In 1-3E, when you started added in supplements the Cleric simply had too huge of a list of spells they could draw from.
 

Spatula

Explorer
I would love to see the cleric as the "cloistered" variety, with the paladin taking on the warrior aspect of faith. Having two warrior-priest-type classes in the game is one too many, IMO. It's a strange D&Dism that all religious spellcasters are trained in heavy armor and blunt weapons, and it doesn't fit some, if not most, D&D faiths.

Of course, it will never happen. This being the "unity" edition, I expect all the sacred cows to be alive and well. The 5e cleric will probably look at lot like the 3e cleric.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
So what things would you like or not like to see part of the 5E Cleric?

Personally I would like two things:

1) the number of spells known limited (but could be a "soft limit" like the Wizard, who can always learn more with some investment)
2) more differences between clerics of different gods

I think 3e had done too little job in the second point. Domain powers were ok, domain spells were too timid... too few domain-only spells compared to the amount of generic spells. I would like the default clerics to emphasize their chosen religions even if that means to have restricted spells, and then leave it to the DM to eventually allow restricted spells (which and how many) to be available to other clerics as well.

Beside this, there are more obvious things:

3) clerics should be masters of healing
4) clerics should be masters against the undead
5) clerics should be decent defensive warriors

Those are what an iconic cleric does, but then it should be an option also to create a cleric that doesn't do them, i.e. a cleric that for some reason is not significantly capable of healing, or shuns fighting (like a cloistered cleric, or friar). These should be options (meaning that they get some other benefits in exchange), not just the result of bad ability/HP rolls or downplaying.

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Also I would like finally some serious considerations on the difference between a cleric and a druid. It bothers me to read books like the FR where there is both a "druid of Mielikki" and a "cleric of Mielikki". I often feel like Druids should move away from gods completely, but perhaps this is a setting issue.
 
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