mellored
Legend
You create a small safe space to rest -> you create a large safe space to rest.
Door at level 3, food at level 5, servants at level 7.
Or some such.
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D&D (2024) What spells should be dropped?
- Thread starter mellored
- Start date
Door at level 3, food at level 5, servants at level 7.
Or some such.
Jefe Bergenstein
Legend
Silvery Barbs probably needs to die as well.
Probably anything that becomes problematic on non-adventuring days or downtime, where you can stockpile resources for actual days. Fabricate, Simulacrum, Polymorph any Object, True Polymorph, that sort of thing.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Not with the death of the Short Rest, we don't.
Now, more than ever players need a way to Long Rest without being screwed with.
I don't really think any spells need to be dropped from the current edition, just taken back to formula like True Strike.
The only spells I think ever needed to die from Core are Disjunction and Detect Evil.
mamba
Legend
They should go whether short rest stays or not, and getting rid of short rest is definitely a bonus.
There is a difference between needing a long rest and being able to have one essentially at will
I don't think we have enough of the new rules to answer for certain right now. All we could do now (at best) is to say which spells are well known to be broken in the 2014 ruleset. Wotc needs to go through
Every.
Single.
Spell.
and seriously ask "Is this spell targeting a need in this edition, or is it 'iconic'/still in place simply because it targeted a mechanical need that only existed because of rules that were in place when the spell was created during 2e/3/x?" Look at the spells through different editions where they existed & ask what mechanics made them important back then while doing it. If those mechanics were no longer present, the spell is probably not worth keeping or current mechanics might need serious tweaks if not optional rules to support them
Just looking at some of the examples in the thread so far take rope trick for example
3.5 natural healing was pretty slow & spell slot recovery took various forms of a good night's rest plus an hour of study/prayer from class to class so obviously 5e's addition of short rests makes the spell massively better than it was in 3.x. The spell was not introduced in 3.5 though & it's been clinging to a purpose that hasn't exsted since 2e all of these years though,
Back in 2e you had 10minute turns
spell recovery was:
And if you got your con to 20 or higher (usually with magic items) you started recovering 1hp per 6 turns (6*10min turns=1 hour).
Rope trick hasn't had a reason to exist for a very long time & 5e took it even further from having a reason when it added short rests.
Melfsacid arrow was another good example... Prior to cantrips it was an economical way of dealing acid damage to nullify certain regeneration abilities (ie trolls) for multiple rounds, but then cantrips became even more economical & what the caster was probably going to use on their turn no matter what while the monster side mechanics that it was important for were stripped in so many ways.
Every.
Single.
Spell.
and seriously ask "Is this spell targeting a need in this edition, or is it 'iconic'/still in place simply because it targeted a mechanical need that only existed because of rules that were in place when the spell was created during 2e/3/x?" Look at the spells through different editions where they existed & ask what mechanics made them important back then while doing it. If those mechanics were no longer present, the spell is probably not worth keeping or current mechanics might need serious tweaks if not optional rules to support them
Just looking at some of the examples in the thread so far take rope trick for example
Rope Trick
(Alteration)
Range: Touch Components: V, S, M
Duration: 2 turns/level Casting Time: 2
Area of Effect: Special Saving Throw: None
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long,
one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs per-
pendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fas-
tened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven
others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety
where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the
extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it;
otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures
might be able to remove it, at the DM’s option). Spells cannot be cast
across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.
Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were
a 3-foot × 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the
extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell,
or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradi-
mensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a
time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal
place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.
Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an exist-
ing extradimensional space is hazardous.
The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract
and a twisted loop of parchment.
(Alteration)
Range: Touch Components: V, S, M
Duration: 2 turns/level Casting Time: 2
Area of Effect: Special Saving Throw: None
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long,
one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs per-
pendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fas-
tened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven
others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety
where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the
extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it;
otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures
might be able to remove it, at the DM’s option). Spells cannot be cast
across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.
Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were
a 3-foot × 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the
extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell,
or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradi-
mensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a
time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal
place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.
Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an exist-
ing extradimensional space is hazardous.
The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract
and a twisted loop of parchment.
Rope Trick
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from
5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope
from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope
rises into the air until the whole rope
hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if
affixed at the upper end. The upper end is,
in fact, fastened to an extradimensional
space that is outside the multiverse of
extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Crea-
tures in the extradimensional space are
hidden, beyond the reach of spells
(including divinations), unless those spells
work across planes. The space holds as
many as eight creatures (of any size).
Creatures in the space can pull the rope up
into the space, making the rope “disap-
pear.” In that case, the rope counts as one
of the eight creatures that can fit in the
space. The rope can support up to 16,000
pounds. A weight greater than that can
pull the rope free.
Spells cannot be cast across the extra-
dimensional interface, nor can area effects
cross it. Those in the extradimensional
space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-
foot window were centered on the rope.
The window is present on the Material
Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures
that can see the window can’t see through
it. Anything inside the extradimensional
space drops out when the spell ends. The
rope can be climbed by only one person at
a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers
to reach a normal place if they do not
climb all the way to the extradimensional
space.
Note: It is hazardous to create an ex-
tradimensional space within an existing
extradimensional space or to take an ex-
tradimensional space into an existing one.
Material Component: Powdered corn
extract and a twisted loop of parchment.
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from
5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope
from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope
rises into the air until the whole rope
hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if
affixed at the upper end. The upper end is,
in fact, fastened to an extradimensional
space that is outside the multiverse of
extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Crea-
tures in the extradimensional space are
hidden, beyond the reach of spells
(including divinations), unless those spells
work across planes. The space holds as
many as eight creatures (of any size).
Creatures in the space can pull the rope up
into the space, making the rope “disap-
pear.” In that case, the rope counts as one
of the eight creatures that can fit in the
space. The rope can support up to 16,000
pounds. A weight greater than that can
pull the rope free.
Spells cannot be cast across the extra-
dimensional interface, nor can area effects
cross it. Those in the extradimensional
space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-
foot window were centered on the rope.
The window is present on the Material
Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures
that can see the window can’t see through
it. Anything inside the extradimensional
space drops out when the spell ends. The
rope can be climbed by only one person at
a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers
to reach a normal place if they do not
climb all the way to the extradimensional
space.
Note: It is hazardous to create an ex-
tradimensional space within an existing
extradimensional space or to take an ex-
tradimensional space into an existing one.
Material Component: Powdered corn
extract and a twisted loop of parchment.
Back in 2e you had 10minute turns
Turns were 10 minutes (PHB197) & if you got your con to 20 or above you'd start regrating HP just with the passing of time. That regen would start at 1hp every 6 turns & drop a round every point of con till it was 1/1 at 25con (PHB21).
- PHB107
"Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night’s sleep and then has to spend time studying his spell books. The amount of study time needed is 10 minutes per level of the spell being memorized. Thus, a 9th-level spell (the most powerful) would require 90 minutes of careful study. Clearly, high-level spellcasters do not lightly change their memorized spells." - PHB111
"Priests must pray to obtain spells, as they are requesting their abilities from some greater power, be it their deity or some intermediary agent of this power. The conditions for praying are identical to those needed for the wizard’s studying." - PHB81
" Healing: A character proficient in healing knows how to use natural medicines and basic principles of first aid and doctoring. If the character tends another within one round of wounding (and makes a successful proficiency check), his ministrations restore 1d3 hit points (but no more hit points can be restored than were lost in the previous round). Only one healing attempt can be made on a character per day.
If a wounded character remains under the care of someone with healing proficiency, that character can recover lost hit points at the rate of 1 per day even when traveling or engaging in nonstrenuous activity. If the wounded character gets complete rest, he can recover 2 hit points per day while under such care. Only characters with both healing and herbalism proficiencies can help others recover at the rate of 3 hit points per day of rest. This care does not require a proficiency check, only the regular attention of the proficient character. Up to six patients can be cared for at any time."
And if you got your con to 20 or higher (usually with magic items) you started recovering 1hp per 6 turns (6*10min turns=1 hour).
Rope trick hasn't had a reason to exist for a very long time & 5e took it even further from having a reason when it added short rests.
Melfsacid arrow was another good example... Prior to cantrips it was an economical way of dealing acid damage to nullify certain regeneration abilities (ie trolls) for multiple rounds, but then cantrips became even more economical & what the caster was probably going to use on their turn no matter what while the monster side mechanics that it was important for were stripped in so many ways.
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doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
In play, I see PCs fail with the bonus. All it does for the Paladin is overcome disadvantage by giving them a +10 total mod to the roll. Even the PCs without disadvantage but with little Dex and no prof are still lower than a rogue with expertise and no spell.
So, no.
Yeah that isn’t a good way to combine spells, IMO. The actual magic involved should be doing the same thing, and if those spells should be one spell, then so should all fire damage spells. “Creates a pocket dimension” is too broad and “creates a safe place” just isn’t a thing to hinge such a combination on.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Yes. That is why I want them to have one at will.
No classes are now able to recharge at a reasonable pace and stop being able to be effective and or act as their class in two encounters, so the need long rests and they need them without the DM having carte blanche to force them to have an encounter where you're down to your boring abilities because attrition was considered interesting twenty years ago.
