D&D 5E What the warlord needs in 5e and how to make it happen.

Using their reaction means it only works once per round per ally. Running though a crowd will just get you beat on.

Plus, a smart NPC can always choose not to. It's upto the DM to play it out.

I think it has to be a save or contested roll, representing that the PC is tricking the enemy. (Which is another reason why I don't think it should be a passive ability.) If the DM can just choose not to take OA whenever doing so would be advantageous to the PC, it's not much of a special ability.

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I've been binge-watching the Netflix Daredevil series (one of the few perqs of getting the flu) and thinking about this concept of the "fighter" who uses guile and terrain and smarts, and not just overwhelming force. On the one hand it's a consistent...and great...trope from fiction/literature: Odysseus, Robin Hood, Captain America, Batman, etc. On the other hand, codifying that trope in a class comes with an implication that other classes fight like...well...they fight like 'bad guys'; full frontal assault with no cleverness. No, it doesn't have to mean that 100%, but the implication is there.

I'm not saying it's not a reason to build such a class. Well, I suppose really I am: those sorts of "moves", if we want them in the game, should have been made available mechanically to all classes. Since it's too late for that we might want to explore a new class, but acknowledge that doing so has implications for other classes as well.

Small children beckon; more later....
 
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Speaking of OA drawing attacks. One optional rule I would like to see is that when classes get extra attack they also use extra dice on their attacks OR use extra attack and extra dice on other attacks outside that action.

So at 5th an extra attack class can use 4d6 once or 2d6 twice with a greatsword - but when making bonus attacks or reaction attacks they get 4d6. Which evens them out with Rogue who would otherwise be the kings of the OA (which in standard rules makes them the de facto choice for Commander's Strike style abilities). For two weapon fighting at 5th 1d6/1d6/2d6 or 2d6/2d6 with a 2d6 reaction attack.

This would have a number of effects:
1. Evening out two weapon fighting
2. Bolstering the currently questionable damage of the Berserker.
3. Sustaining the threat level of OA attacks.
4a. Evening out/scaling options for granted attacks.
4b. Thrown Weapons, Crossbows (added)

5. Increasing the already strong Polearm Mastery feat - which I would house rule anyway.

6. Not sure how I feel about Hordebreaker and Giantkiller from Ranger Hunter.
 
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I would start with either a cleric or a warlock base for the new warlord. For an inspiring type subclass Cha would be important and for a tactical subclass Int would be important. Con would be the second stat. It would be nice to have a melee / ranged weapons class that relied on Int.
 

I would start with either a cleric or a warlock base for the new warlord. For an inspiring type subclass Cha would be important and for a tactical subclass Int would be important. Con would be the second stat. It would be nice to have a melee / ranged weapons class that relied on Int.

I really like the idea of using the Warlock chassis, especially since that's the "short rest" class. My preference is to make Int the main stat (something D&D is too short on anyway) with subclasses keying off Charisma for one, and perhaps Wisdom for another. I think that's how the previous Warlord worked.
 

I would start with either a cleric or a warlock base for the new warlord. For an inspiring type subclass Cha would be important and for a tactical subclass Int would be important. Con would be the second stat. It would be nice to have a melee / ranged weapons class that relied on Int.
Monk is a decent option as well.

Getting 1 short rest ki/die/tactical point per level. Which can empower your maneuvers.
 

My preference is to make Int the main stat (something D&D is too short on anyway) with subclasses keying off Charisma for one, and perhaps Wisdom for another. I think that's how the previous Warlord worked.
STR, INT/CHA (one build shoehorned in WIS). But STR-primary was really one of the D&D sacred cows that 4e kept alive, and 5e's well, not killed, but let wander out to pasture and stopped worshiping so much, and prettymuch anyone can go STR or DEX for their primary weapon-combat stat - no reason for the Warlord to be an exception (well, no GOOD reason, a reflexive 4venger need to clone the Warlord mechanically being a reason, obviously).


I think it has to be a save or contested roll, representing that the PC is tricking the enemy. (Which is another reason why I don't think it should be a passive ability.)
Agree it shouldn't be 'passive' (at least, not on the part of the player, keeping players engaged is good).
I'm not so sure about contested checks. Check vs a DC based on a 'passive' score strikes me as a better mechanic. That or just a save. Usual DC. You could make it INT-based.

If the DM can just choose not to take OA whenever doing so would be advantageous to the PC, it's not much of a special ability.
It'd seem that way. But if, like marking (4e version), the ability makes both choices a little worse, a catch-22, it stays 'special' whichever way the DM chooses. So if you provoke an OA because you need to do the thing that provokes, and set up an ally to punish that OA, than either you get away with the original action because the enemy declined (and the ally keeps his Reaction to use later), or the enemy takes a quick beating from the ally.

Now, that's actually not how most such abilities worked in 4e. I've played a Bravura Warlord (several times, different DMs, all three Tiers among them), and each time had a way of setting up ally OAs or free attacks in response to enemy OAs. The most typical one being an at-will attack. Warlord attacks (a nothing-special attack, no better than a basic), gives enemy the option of taking the OA, if the enemy takes it, an ally gets a free basic attack. If the enemy declines, the Warlord has lost nothing, he still made an attack on his turn. If the enemy takes the OA, the Warlord's taking a risk, but an ally's getting a free shot. The decision, on both sides, can be a mix of tactics and RP (and optimization rules-of-thumb).

I've been binge-watching the Netflix Daredevil series (one of the few perqs of getting the flu) and thinking about this concept of the "fighter" who uses guile and terrain and smarts, and not just overwhelming force. On the one hand it's a consistent...and great...trope from fiction/literature: Odysseus, Robin Hood, Captain America, Batman, etc.
Nod. Not the kind of archetypes D&D has often done a great job modeling, combat being so abstract, and martial class designs so limited in most editions.

On the other hand, codifying that trope in a class comes with an implication that other classes fight like...well...they fight like 'bad guys'; full frontal assault with no cleverness. No, it doesn't have to mean that 100%, but the implication is there.
That implication was a lot stronger when classes had a lot of designed-in/hard-coded 'niche protection.' Back when Greyhawk presented the Thief class and suddenly only they could Find Traps, because now it was a 'special' ability, it was a big deal.

Ever since 3.0 introduce modular multi-classing, class exclusivity has become less and less a stumbling block. Like removing restrictions on casting, that's something 5e has not backed off from, but continued the trend. In 5e, any character can pick up at least a toy or two from any other class. Even if there's no outright MCing allowed, there are feats like Magic Initiate and Martial Adept. Even if feats are also not opted-into, there are sub-class and Backgrounds that hearken to another class.

(Think about all the ways you can do fighter/magic-user these days: Fighter/Wizard. Eldritch Knight. Bladesinger. Fighter with the Sage Background. Fighter with Magic Initiate. Wizard with the Soldier Background. Wizard with Martial Adept. Or, stretching it slightly, Valor Bard or Hexblade.
And you can further combine some of the above.)

I'm not saying it's not a reason to build such a class.
Good, because it really hasn't been much of a reason this millennium. :)

those sorts of "moves", if we want them in the game, should have been made available mechanically to all classes.
Well, if they're introduced as Maneuvers, Martial Adept could be errata'd to work for them, as well as BM maneuvers, or a new feat introduced with the new class, for two instances that'd do just that.

Though, really, the idea that 'anybody should be able to do that' when "that" is fight like " Odysseus, Robin Hood, Captain America, Batman, etc" seems a bit counter-intuitive. Surely those characters are exceptional, even superhuman (or beyond the mundane norm of humanity, at least), even though not supernatural.
 
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In 3e [wizards] got to shoot Light Crossbows. Yeah. And we were glad we had 'em, too. We were thankful for that simple weapon proficiency after years of only being able to figure out 3 weapons...

but 3e "wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff."

They couldn't even throw darts!
 


I'm not so sure about contested checks. Check vs a DC based on a 'passive' score strikes me as a better mechanic. That or just a save. Usual DC. You could make it INT-based.

Yeah, I'm not stuck on contested roll. Save works fine, too.

It'd seem that way. But if, like marking (4e version), the ability makes both choices a little worse, a catch-22, it stays 'special' whichever way the DM chooses. So if you provoke an OA because you need to do the thing that provokes, and set up an ally to punish that OA, than either you get away with the original action because the enemy declined (and the ally keeps his Reaction to use later), or the enemy takes a quick beating from the ally.

That's more true if it triggers off a normal OA-triggering action, such as movement. My original conception was that it doesn't require movement, instead Captain Darebat just "presents an opportunity", e.g. he feints as if he's fleeing, or whatever.

Though, really, the idea that 'anybody should be able to do that' when "that" is fight like " Odysseus, Robin Hood, Captain America, Batman, etc" seems a bit counter-intuitive. Surely those characters are exceptional, even superhuman (or beyond the mundane norm of humanity, at least), even though not supernatural.

No, not anybody. Player characters. Heroes. And most especially the ones who choose to fight without casting spells.

I do understand the argument that if you make some heroes physically weaker than fighters and rogues and barbarians (smaller HD and less damage output, for example) then you make up for it with the ability to, well, fight like a hero. But I still think it's tricky ground.
 

Though, really, the idea that 'anybody should be able to do that' when "that" is fight like " Odysseus, Robin Hood, Captain America, Batman, etc" seems a bit counter-intuitive. Surely those characters are exceptional, even superhuman (or beyond the mundane norm of humanity, at least), even though not supernatural.
But you can already play 5e characters that adequately model character concepts like "that" (given your four examples above*). And they can even be "exceptional, even superhuman (or beyond the mundane norm of humanity, at least), even though not supernatural".


[*I'm intrigued by the shoehorning of such characters as Batman and Robin Hood into the warlord role now. Really? Don't those two, especially, seem like a bit of a stretch?]
 

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