D&D 5E What to do about a player... A little advice please
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FieserMoep
Explorer
I would be cautions with such claims given the DM mentioned setting shifts. There are plausable worlds and setting in which cult like self sacrifice may be very much lawful and some where it can be even considered good.
Ultimately, Alignment tells us nothing yet again.
As for the OP:
Put him into place. In theory the idea of his background contact knowing everything should have been shut down in Session 0, if you want to accept that carackert now, make the PC "pay" for it. The NPC only helped him so far so that the PC can be useful for him. Now that the PC is in a position the NPCs likes, he wants stuff from him so he will continue to help him. Basically a puppet master that may very well be a a rather potent wizard.
As for his appeal to NPCs. RP it realistically. Just wanting their love does not happen, he has to work and earn it. And then he might get competition by state religions, churches and what ever.
Ultimately the approach and ambition to be a hero of the people or cult leader is totally valid. The only dissonance seems to be how he gets there.
Well I have sat him down and talked to him about how Suggestion cannot be made to have people give up their homes a livleyhood's to go out to a frontier village he wants to usurp from a local lord. Strangely, this world we are only a session in, hasn't met the Lord but is already planning to the village and make himself "Ranking Noble." We have the suggestion luckily sort out I think, so it doesn't look like he'll continue on with trying to convert the Goat herder they rescued to himself.
Though I doubt his plans to take Lords Village will pan out given RP, rather he not just kill himself or possibly group, but I feel that would be unfair to simply say no to everything or maybe that's just me not wanting to be confrontational. Though he kept dodging the conversation about his alignment
Though I doubt his plans to take Lords Village will pan out given RP, rather he not just kill himself or possibly group, but I feel that would be unfair to simply say no to everything or maybe that's just me not wanting to be confrontational. Though he kept dodging the conversation about his alignment
Eltab
Lord of the Hidden Layer
Both you and the player, separately and together, need to figure out what is going on here.
- Does the PC want to become a political leader?
- Does the PC want to become a religious leader?
- How does the PC intend to make himself a leader? (He has to be able to explain a plan to you.*)
- Re-read all rules, spells, skill checks, &c. he mentions. Find out if things really do work the way he thinks they do.
- Are either / both of those positions already filled by an NPC?
- What might the NPC do when he finds out there is a rival?
You don't know enough to proceed with this plot thread. You have to nail him down more (even if it feels like nailing Jell-O to a wall). Do not be afraid to flat-out tell him that half-baked notions will hear NO but a solid plan - something you can bounce off of and find inspiration from and work into the campaign world - will hear YES.
* To use an IRL example, Donald Trump did not just appear out of thin air and announce "Today, I became the President of the United States." (Nor did Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, &c &c) He had a long-standing reputation - since 1973 in NYC - and had dabbled with the idea for several previous elections. He spent a year-and-a-half learning how a Presidential campaign is run, then doing it.
Is this PC up for the same, or is he planning to just ex nihilo get the goodies?
- Does the PC want to become a political leader?
- Does the PC want to become a religious leader?
- How does the PC intend to make himself a leader? (He has to be able to explain a plan to you.*)
- Re-read all rules, spells, skill checks, &c. he mentions. Find out if things really do work the way he thinks they do.
- Are either / both of those positions already filled by an NPC?
- What might the NPC do when he finds out there is a rival?
You don't know enough to proceed with this plot thread. You have to nail him down more (even if it feels like nailing Jell-O to a wall). Do not be afraid to flat-out tell him that half-baked notions will hear NO but a solid plan - something you can bounce off of and find inspiration from and work into the campaign world - will hear YES.
* To use an IRL example, Donald Trump did not just appear out of thin air and announce "Today, I became the President of the United States." (Nor did Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, &c &c) He had a long-standing reputation - since 1973 in NYC - and had dabbled with the idea for several previous elections. He spent a year-and-a-half learning how a Presidential campaign is run, then doing it.
Is this PC up for the same, or is he planning to just ex nihilo get the goodies?
redrick
First Post
As others have said, it sounds like there might be themes he wants that are missing from your campaign. Maybe you can give some of these themes to him. Trying to be popular with the masses and constantly looking for ways to win them over and achieve leadership positions is a totally valid character motivation, and if you can find ways to work that into your D&D game, great.
Once you do that (if you decide to do that), you just have to work with the player about what the starting limitations have to be for his character, and what the limitations of his personality are. Make it clear that he will, over the course of the campaign, be able to to work towards real influence, but, if you are starting at level 1, he will have to start with a relatively limited base of influence. His character can be delusional about it and act like a big man around town, who nobody actually listens to, or he can take the long game, slowly scheming to build up his influence. Note, in my opinion, this doesn't have to be a "political" campaign. A player can approach a swords and sorcery tomb robbing campaign with an intention of winning the support of all the masses they encounter.
Obviously, it has to be something that can engage the rest of the players too, but maybe they would be alright with it if it were actually integrated into the campaign, instead of clearly a push-pull dynamic between the adventure you are trying to run and the adventure your friend is trying to play.
Once you do that (if you decide to do that), you just have to work with the player about what the starting limitations have to be for his character, and what the limitations of his personality are. Make it clear that he will, over the course of the campaign, be able to to work towards real influence, but, if you are starting at level 1, he will have to start with a relatively limited base of influence. His character can be delusional about it and act like a big man around town, who nobody actually listens to, or he can take the long game, slowly scheming to build up his influence. Note, in my opinion, this doesn't have to be a "political" campaign. A player can approach a swords and sorcery tomb robbing campaign with an intention of winning the support of all the masses they encounter.
Obviously, it has to be something that can engage the rest of the players too, but maybe they would be alright with it if it were actually integrated into the campaign, instead of clearly a push-pull dynamic between the adventure you are trying to run and the adventure your friend is trying to play.
Iry
Legend
This is always a hotly debated topic, but Alignment doesn't really compel behavior. If the alignment tag on your character sheet changes because of the Deck or other magical reasons, you probably need to go into more detail and create a small list of supernatural compulsions that the character now has to carry out that would result in Lawful Good.
Just a few examples:
- Character must make an attempt to take prisoners instead of outright killing.
- Character must arrange for those prisoners to be taken to the local authorities.
- Character is compelled to spend some of his downtime helping the weak and poor.
- Character feels wracking guilt if they directly or indirectly cause harm to innocents.
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1. Don't hold players to their alignment. The alignment could be "wrong" and nothing bad will happen. Just ignore it. Treat it like a spelling error. Like when you glance at someone's character sheet and it turns out they've been playing a "rouge" for the past four sessions.
2. Look at the special features of the various backgrounds. Make him pick one. If he's a noble, then sure, he can hobnob with the people in the palace; and if he's a folk hero, he can lean on the people in the village for various things; but not both!
The background features were designed to help guide this sort of non-combat story interaction.
3. When he says what he wants the character to achieve, be very clear and explicit about what it will take. Like if he wants followers so loyal that they will lay down their lives for him, that's going to take some incredible inspiration and/or brainwashing, plus a large pool of potential recruits to draw from.
"Other Rewards" in the DMG (p.227) is a good starting point: Maybe for completing quests he gains some sort of widespread recognition and, eventually, followers. Talk to the other players, too, about what kind of stuff they want for their PCs. Maybe as this guy is building his army, other PCs are building airships, researching custom spells, or raising a family?
The loyalty system in the DMG (p.93) is a really good mechanic for communicating this kind of stuff to the player. Straight-up tell the player what the NPC's current loyalty is. Let them roll the dice for increasing/decreasing loyalty. I'd adjust the system by tying the follower's max loyalty to this particular PC due to personal loyalty. And I'd allow the max loyalty to increase or decrease a little based on the character's reputation. This ties in to the "Other Rewards" suggestion; you can say things like, "If you solve this quest for the villagers your followers' max loyalty will increase by 1." Or, "If you go back on your word now, your reputation will be tarnish, and your followers max loyalty will decrease by 1." This is kind of similar to increasing and decreasing Honor (DMG p.265) except it's a more general reputation than just honor.
The point of putting numbers on this stuff is to communicate clearly with your player. Numbers will show him very clearly that he WILL get what he wants, it just might take a little while. They also help you, the DM, to plan this stuff in advance. Like, you could declare that max loyalty can only get at most +1/-1 per session, or that each follower can only get loyalty increased once per week, or something like that. This will let you pace the game how you want. If you set up a clear game mechanic in advance like this, it will help avoid disagreements about how NPCs "should" act.
2. Look at the special features of the various backgrounds. Make him pick one. If he's a noble, then sure, he can hobnob with the people in the palace; and if he's a folk hero, he can lean on the people in the village for various things; but not both!
The background features were designed to help guide this sort of non-combat story interaction.
3. When he says what he wants the character to achieve, be very clear and explicit about what it will take. Like if he wants followers so loyal that they will lay down their lives for him, that's going to take some incredible inspiration and/or brainwashing, plus a large pool of potential recruits to draw from.
"Other Rewards" in the DMG (p.227) is a good starting point: Maybe for completing quests he gains some sort of widespread recognition and, eventually, followers. Talk to the other players, too, about what kind of stuff they want for their PCs. Maybe as this guy is building his army, other PCs are building airships, researching custom spells, or raising a family?
The loyalty system in the DMG (p.93) is a really good mechanic for communicating this kind of stuff to the player. Straight-up tell the player what the NPC's current loyalty is. Let them roll the dice for increasing/decreasing loyalty. I'd adjust the system by tying the follower's max loyalty to this particular PC due to personal loyalty. And I'd allow the max loyalty to increase or decrease a little based on the character's reputation. This ties in to the "Other Rewards" suggestion; you can say things like, "If you solve this quest for the villagers your followers' max loyalty will increase by 1." Or, "If you go back on your word now, your reputation will be tarnish, and your followers max loyalty will decrease by 1." This is kind of similar to increasing and decreasing Honor (DMG p.265) except it's a more general reputation than just honor.
The point of putting numbers on this stuff is to communicate clearly with your player. Numbers will show him very clearly that he WILL get what he wants, it just might take a little while. They also help you, the DM, to plan this stuff in advance. Like, you could declare that max loyalty can only get at most +1/-1 per session, or that each follower can only get loyalty increased once per week, or something like that. This will let you pace the game how you want. If you set up a clear game mechanic in advance like this, it will help avoid disagreements about how NPCs "should" act.
Ganymede81
First Post
Alignment does not compel player agency any more than a PC's personality traits, ideal, bond, or flaw do.
That said, if you're not comporting your PCs behavior that hew to your alignment, personality traits, ideal, bond, or flaw without a legitimate in-game rationale, then what is the point of even putting those things on your character sheet?
In either case, these things were not at issue. The main problem was that she's inexperienced at roleplay and just has her character act as she would in real life.
Slit518
Adventurer
Here is some advice that you should follow to help take care of that player once and for all!
1) Challenge the player to Mortal Kombat.
2) When they turn their back to get out the ol' Sega Genesis and a copy of Mortal Kombat, turn into Sub-Zero for real, and learn all of his tricks.
3) Rip their head off, spine dangling and all! That will teach them!
On a more serious note, if you have talked to the player before, perhaps even countless times, and it annoys not only you but the other players at the table, disrupting the game quite often, just stop inviting the player to the sessions.
1) Challenge the player to Mortal Kombat.
2) When they turn their back to get out the ol' Sega Genesis and a copy of Mortal Kombat, turn into Sub-Zero for real, and learn all of his tricks.
3) Rip their head off, spine dangling and all! That will teach them!
On a more serious note, if you have talked to the player before, perhaps even countless times, and it annoys not only you but the other players at the table, disrupting the game quite often, just stop inviting the player to the sessions.
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