What to do about the 15-minute work day?

[Tony Vargas]

My players are no Sun Tzus and they manage to keep the game flowing just fine.

OK. What I was trying to say was that players being too tactically 'brilliant' could mess up the flow of your game as much as them making 'dumb mistakes.' If, that is, the game 'swings' too much based on such things, vs putting a fairly large chunk of effectiveness in the characters, themselves, I suppose... anyway, that's getting tangential, I think.

To me when someone complains about a 15 minute day as a problem my first thought is that the wizard has gone nova just because he can and didn't need to. I think it is easy to fix this by rewarding good tactics and letting bad ones bite the PC in the butt. This is more of a resource management issue and maybe a newbie player or player with bad tactics.

So, your first reaction to the complaint is that anyone who notices the problem must be stupid or inexperienced? I hope you can see how that might not be too constructive.

The '5 minute workday' is not a consequence of bad tactics or inexperience or anything of that nature. It's a consequence of the system providing disproportionate mechanical rewards (re-gaining potent spells and other resources) for resting, leading to the party doing so as much as they can contrive to. An inexperienced group could stumble onto that fact, or a group of hard-core 'system masters' could knowingly exploit it - either way, it's there, and it's a mechanical issue.

Changing the mechanics of the game to deal with this issue is like putting a tourniquet on a paper cut.

I think the mechanical solution is more preventative - so, wearing kevlar gloves to avoid papercuts, perhaps? Still sounds silly, that is, if the class and encounter imbalances and pacing issues caused by the 5-minute workday phenomenon were trivial. I'm afraid the 5MW is a metaphorical paper-cut that severs arteries.

One way to partially address the multiple problems the 5-minute workday causes is to give all characters comparable daily resources, that way there's not class imbalance when it happens. But, it doesn't /stop/ it from happening, and it'll still distort encounter balance.

A very obvious and effective way of dealing with the issue is simply doing away with daily resources, entirely, replacing them with encounter resources (resting or waiting a day isn't an issue) or 'story' resources (the DM decides when they recharge, period). That still wouldn't /stop/ characters from resting after a given combat, it just wouldn't give them any reward for doing so.

But that is not what others are saying they are saying that they don't like the idea of one class being able to go nova and want to bring a more balanced approach or they want the PCs to face more challenges where the power for the day stays some what constant. Or they simply don't like how long it takes to get spells back. This issue is the one that needs the rule change.

Nod, possibly very different rule changes, if the idea is to use power re-charge rates to shape player choices or campaign feel. Or, the game could be made to avoid favoring any one pacing or style...

 

[Elf Witch]

OK. What I was trying to say was that players being too tactically 'brilliant' could mess up the flow of your game as much as them making 'dumb mistakes.' If, that is, the game 'swings' too much based on such things, vs putting a fairly large chunk of effectiveness in the characters, themselves, I suppose... anyway, that's getting tangential, I think.


So, your first reaction to the complaint is that anyone who notices the problem must be stupid or inexperienced? I hope you can see how that might not be too constructive.

The '5 minute workday' is not a consequence of bad tactics or inexperience or anything of that nature. It's a consequence of the system providing disproportionate mechanical rewards (re-gaining potent spells and other resources) for resting, leading to the party doing so as much as they can contrive to. An inexperienced group could stumble onto that fact, or a group of hard-core 'system masters' could knowingly exploit it - either way, it's there, and it's a mechanical issue.

I think the mechanical solution is more preventative - so, wearing kevlar gloves to avoid papercuts, perhaps? Still sounds silly, that is, if the class and encounter imbalances and pacing issues caused by the 5-minute workday phenomenon were trivial. I'm afraid the 5MW is a metaphorical paper-cut that severs arteries.

One way to partially address the multiple problems the 5-minute workday causes is to give all characters comparable daily resources, that way there's not class imbalance when it happens. But, it doesn't /stop/ it from happening, and it'll still distort encounter balance.

A very obvious and effective way of dealing with the issue is simply doing away with daily resources, entirely, replacing them with encounter resources (resting or waiting a day isn't an issue) or 'story' resources (the DM decides when they recharge, period). That still wouldn't /stop/ characters from resting after a given combat, it just wouldn't give them any reward for doing so.

Nod, possibly very different rule changes, if the idea is to use power re-charge rates to shape player choices or campaign feel. Or, the game could be made to avoid favoring any one pacing or style...

Well you have just stated the obvious players can mess up the DM plans and the flow of the game. In other news water is wet.

When someone says how do I stop the wizard from going nova and using all his spells then wanting to rest then yes I think that part of the issue could be inexperienced players or DMs. Or DM s who allow this kind of behavior by letting the players do it over and over with no consequences.

I have read plenty of advice from old game designers back in the old days of the 1E and 2E dealing with this issue and the advice was always don't let them rest, use time limits make them realize that they need to manage their resources better.

I have players come into my games and other games I have played in who played wizards who would nova when it was not necessary and using these tactics stopped them from doing this.

And being inexperienced or not great with tactics has nothing to so with being stupid but be my guest and just assume that is what I am saying.

I have noticed that a lot of newbies who play magic users often have trouble with going nova it is a learning curve it is like dealing with healing learning when to bite the bullet and waiting to being healed and knowing that waiting is a bad idea.

If you choose to play 1,2 or 3 you need to be aware that this can be an issue and know how to handle it as a DM.

I am going to disagree with you that it is just a mechanical issue I have seen people complaining about the 15 minute day in 4E as well. Part of this is a playstyle where players don't want to take on any challenges unless they are fully powered.

Yes one way is to do encounter resources but here is a news flash not all of us want that in our role playing games because it does not fit our play style. I don't want the okay encounter is over lets rest here so we can get our powers back that to me is the same as resting because you went nova.

Which is why I said you needs to fist identify exactly what the problem is to find the fix that works best with your game.

 

[Jester David]

I like my investigative modules. The problem with these is they tend to take place over multiple days and end with a single battle. They were tricky with 4e as bad guys had to have minions or be a solo, and because the PCs could drop Dailies and nova.
More than any other edition, 4e changed how I wrote and planned adventures. I changed the stories I told to accommodate the rules.

I don't want hard mechanics preventing 15-minute workday. I'd rather know how to deal with it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

When someone says how do I stop the wizard from going nova and using all his spells then wanting to rest then yes I think that part of the issue could be inexperienced players or DMs.

Well, the flip side of it is: why do they feel the /need/ to keep the wizard from doing that? It's because doing so makes the character going nova over-powered - it's ruining the game for everyone else, the DM included.

I have read plenty of advice from old game designers back in the old days of the 1E and 2E dealing with this issue and the advice was always don't let them rest, use time limits make them realize that they need to manage their resources better.

Right, subordinate the needs of your campaign/story to the needs of balancing the nova-capable classes.

It's an answer, yes. It's not as good a solution as a mechanical one, though.

I am going to disagree with you that it is just a mechanical issue I have seen people complaining about the 15 minute day in 4E as well.

Nod. 4e retained daily powers. While it gave them to everyone and that solved the class imbalance issue with the 5-minute work-day, it didn't make it go away, and there are still encounter-balance issues the DM has to grapple with once the party clues into that weakness of the system. It's less pronounced than in high-level 3e and early, but it's not gone.

To give another example: "'D&D' Gamma World" came out a while back, and it's a bit like 4e, except that combat is encounter-based, you don't have dailies or surges, you just start each combat with all your hps and all your powers restored. The only 'resource' that gets expended from one encounter to the next is Omega Tech, and it's random. There is zero impetus to take extended rests in that game, and you don't see players - even those who rest every chance they get in 4e - doing so.

It's a matter of a mechanical incentive. Remove the incentive, and the problem is gone - and the DM (and players) free to use whatever pacing feels right to them.

Yes one way is to do encounter resources but here is a news flash not all of us want that in our role playing games because it does not fit our play style. I don't want the okay encounter is over lets rest here so we can get our powers back that to me is the same as resting because you went nova.

It's exactly the same, in kind, just much less in degree, yes.

 

[mlund]

Almost everyone wants a narrative flow that makes some sense to them. Chopping things up with a Nova-Rest-Nova routine cuts into the narrative flow badly. The DM can come up with ways to avoid it but the Players also have incentive to look for the best risk-reward deals they can find in the system. Going into a challenge at less than 100% reflects an increased risk vs. going into a challenge at your best. What reward do players receive for that? None.

Killing 10 bands of kobolds over 10 days gives the same exact rewards as killing them all in one day. you get the same loot and XP. One is clearly more dangerous than the other, so until the DM takes a stick to beat the players in line all the game incentive is for a 15 minute work-day.

The reflect the higher level of challenge (and reward the higher level of drama and narrative flow) why don't the XP awards go proportionately for tackling more in less time? The DMG is going to have XP budget recommendations per character level to design level-appropriate challenges. For each additional budget unit beyond the first that you tackle in a work-day (between Extended Rests) you could get +10% XP.

Now players have an incentive where none previously existed. There's also no need to apply what might be perceived as an adversarial "stick" to herd the players with. Players are on XP and swag like funk on Comic-Con.

- Marty Lund

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

IMHO the only real mechanical 'fix' for the 5MW is to remove all recharge powers {spells, etc..} from the PCs. Limiting to only encounter powers is reinforcing the 5MW play style as it build the nova to rest as the standard.

The '5 minute workday' is not a consequence of bad tactics or inexperience or anything of that nature. It's a consequence of the system providing disproportionate mechanical rewards (re-gaining potent spells and other resources) for resting, leading to the party doing so as much as they can contrive to. An inexperienced group could stumble onto that fact, or a group of hard-core 'system masters' could knowingly exploit it - either way, it's there, and it's a mechanical issue.

I disagree. The 5MW is a consequence of living in a static world that only exists or changes when the PCs actively interact. Yes, there is a mechanical advantage to resting and being as powerful as possible.
There is a story disadvantage that your mission may fail by your inactivity... but this disadvantage only applies if the GM has the world react to the players inactivity.

To me, the 5MW is like a bad video game where you battle the Orcs in room A, look into room B through the open door to see another pile of Orcs... and hit the 'rest' button for 8 hours before attacking.

The funny thing is that if you tell your players that the world is a living, breathing entity and their enemies will react intelligently to attacks... you don't have to worry about managing the living, breathing world because your players will push through to avoid having the situation change on them.

So my answer... keep the resource management options {dailies, spells, etc..} and provide solid advice on managing the pacing and keeping the world living. Heck, sometimes its really fun for the party to go NOVA!!1!!!1!! {and equally fun for the monsters to NOVA right back!}

Having a means to burn these resources in non-combat scenarios would help balance out the combat vs investigation process... but that's a bit harder to work out effectively.

YMMV, of course

 

[Tony Vargas]

IMHO the only real mechanical 'fix' for the 5MW is to remove all recharge powers {spells, etc..} from the PCs. Limiting to only encounter powers is reinforcing the 5MW play style as it build the nova to rest as the standard.

Heh. Yeah, if encounters have the power of dailies, every encounter is like a nova encounter.

I disagree. The 5MW is a consequence of living in a static world that only exists or changes when the PCs actively interact. Yes, there is a mechanical advantage to resting and being as powerful as possible.

Thought experiment: You have a party with no daily resources at all: they're all Fighters, I guess, with no daily magic items, no Stunning Blow feats, and bags of holding full of healing potions.

Case 1: They're in a world that reacts to their inactivity - monsters re-spawn over night, enemies improve their fortifications every day, the villains' union requires hostages be killed at midnight, etc, etc...

What do they do? They fight their way through everything, pausing only long enough to guzzle healing potions as they go.

Case 2: They're in a static world that doesn't react to their inactivity - if a monster's living in that cave, he just chills there, he doesn't go out every morning and dig another pit trap, if the monster gets killed, he doesn't re-spawn in 24-hours, if the evil bandit kidnaps the princess he might wait more than 24 hrs for the ransom (or sell her into slavery) rather than promptly kill her.

What do they do? They fight their way through everything, pausing only long enough to guzzle healing potions as they go, returning to town to buy more only after going through all of them.


The 5MWD is a /consequence/ of a mechanical incentive to rest as often as possible. Vancian casting is an enormous part of that incentive, but any renewable daily resource contributes. Distorting the game world to force adventures onto a 3-5-encounters-day time-table may eliminate the 5MWD, if done in a sufficiently draconian manner, but failing to be draconian is not the cause. The mechanical incentives built into the system are the cause.

the 5MW is like a bad video game where you battle the Orcs in room A, look into room B through the open door to see another pile of Orcs... and hit the 'rest' button for 8 hours before attacking.

Yes, yes it is. And what inspired those video games? Classic D&D.

The funny thing is that if you tell your players that the world is a living, breathing entity and their enemies will react intelligently to attacks... you don't have to worry about managing the living, breathing world because your players will push through to avoid having the situation change on them.

Well, or they won't. They may want to assault a fortress, but figure watching it for a few days until the guards become lax and then staging the attack might be better. Or they, may start a guerilla campaign, taking out anything of value outside the fortress, so that patrols get sent out, then ambushing some of the patrols... Or they might systematically abuse a few spells to get a lot of money and make some magic items. Because, really, in a living world, /someone/ is going to go and deal this or that grave threat, even if their one specific band of adventurers doesn't, right?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Thought experiment: [snip]

Yes, remove the mechanical benefit of the 5MW and the countering penalty of a living world becomes moot. ... from the perspective of combat effectiveness.

Well, or they won't. They may want to assault a fortress, but figure watching it for a few days until the guards become lax and then staging the attack might be better. Or they, may start a guerilla campaign, taking out anything of value outside the fortress, so that patrols get sent out, then ambushing some of the patrols... Or they might systematically abuse a few spells to get a lot of money and make some magic items. Because, really, in a living world, /someone/ is going to go and deal this or that grave threat, even if their one specific band of adventurers doesn't, right?

Yes, and those are all good things. But in a living world they won't find the hidden hideout of the bandits, attack them and defeat half of the bandits before retreating to rest and power back up... and then go back and expect the bandits to be sitting there waiting for the fight to start back up after the PCs called TIME OUT. Odds are the bandits, realizing they are over-matched, will grab the loot and depart the area.

Will someone take care of the grave threat? How cool would the story be if someone didn't?
Or, how boring would it be if someone else did take care of the threats, leaving the PCs to wander around and.. um....?

 

[SteveC]

Narrow set of games? Why would planning and managing resources from both sides of the table limit your choice of game? You can still go all hack and slash or role play heavy, or urban play or dungeons. Can't think of a style that would run into problems just because the GM decides to eliminate the 15 min issue.

Unless you're thinking of some way of doing this other than what's being discussed, the removal of the 15 minute workday creates a situation that is the playstyle. I can this sort of campaign "Fantasy Vietnam," since it (of necessity) turns the game into a situation where you have to deal with the possibility of attack and death at any time, and can't reliably rest and recover resources except when allowed by the GM. Perhaps you were thinking of some other means of "managing resources from both sides of the table?"

I wonder how an urban, high roleplaying campaign can deal with this, how do you have a series of random combats while in a city? Does everything always have a strict timetable?

The kind of games that are being discussed here as dealing with this issue are really not the sort I'm interested in playing. Now that's fine (no badwrongfun here: really!) but there are fewer types of games you can run with this kind of system. If you need to either have strict time crunch issues for the entire campaign, or random battles simply to block rests, that's not a game I'm interested in.

As I've said: this isn't an issue I've seen much with 3x and not at all with 4E, but in earlier editions? All the time! In this way, 5E would be a major step backwards if it didn't address the issue.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes, remove the mechanical benefit of the 5MW and the countering penalty of a living world becomes moot. ... from the perspective of combat effectiveness.

And out-of-combat effectiveness where it rests on renewable daily resources (and, with Vancian casting so versatile, it very often does). Just about any kind of effectiveness, really - if do-anything daily spells can add to it.

The point of the 'experiment' is simply that a mechanic that doesn't over-reward 'resting' works fine whether you're running a fairly static game or a 'living world,' without distorting either.

With a system - like Vancian casting or AEDU - that encourages the 5MWD, you have to adjust the style of play and pacing of the campaign to compensate for it. Whatever your style was, you have to sacrifice it to make up for the mechanical imbalance, whether that imbalance is in encounters or among characters or both.

Will someone take care of the grave threat?

Possibly. In a 'living,' verisimilitudinous world where the PCs are just one among many bands of adventurers, it's possible someone better than them will 'jump their claim' if they hesitate on any adventure - it's also entirely possible for them to hand something off if they decide they can't handle it. They're not really the protagonists of /the/ story, just the protagonists of their own story. :shrug:

How cool would the story be if someone didn't?

Might be pretty aweful. Or maybe it would create more opportunities for the PCs? Depends on the situation. That's the kind of thing you have to think about. Is putting it all on the line to stop the evil wizard really a great idea? Or might it be better to prey on his allies, scooping up the loot they gather from the countryside, while collecting kudos for 'standing up to' his evilness.

Or, how boring would it be if someone else did take care of the threats, leaving the PCs to wander around and.. um....?

Pretty boring, but that's a feature of the style. The PCs aren't the center of attention, if they let an opportunity pass, they may be bored for a while, if they jump in half-cocked, they might get killed. It's a balancing act - lots of risk/reward evaluation.


I think, ultimately, however much you dress it up as 'good tactics' on the party's side and 'living world' on the DM's side, the 5MWD and it's counters come down to metagaming on both sides of the screen. The mechanics dictate a huge advantage to the rested party, the party would be foolish not to maximize such advantage, the DM must therefor counter it constantly.