D&D 5E (+)What Ubiquitous DnD Tropes Get It Totally Wrong?

[FlyingChihuahua]

I dont... think they are, really? Like, for one thing Inccubi exist as a male counterpart. For another, succubi and incubi don’t have a history of being used as stand-ins for their entire respective genders the way that orcs have been as a stand-in for a race of people.

Inccubi exist so that overprotective parents can excuse the habits of their daughters and be able to essentially sell them for better dowries.

Right, but the difference there is that the vampire-as-predatory-foreigner is widely accepted for the problematic trope that it is, and subject to thorough and widespread critique and deconstruction.

And the Orcs-as-primitive-savages hasn't? I've seen plenty of worlds where Orcs are perfectly normal. (as much as a fantasy race can be when you don't want them to be essentially differently colored humans and thus potentially boring) See Eberron and it's "Orcs as the primary adversaries to mindbending cosmic horrors ready and willing to use everything in a horrific science experiment" take on Orcs.

Yeah...? I would think it would be pretty obvious why a creature that’s used as an allegory for abusive relationships being evil is not a problem in the same way that a creature that’s used as an allegory for a race of people being evil is.

Fair, but again, the fact that you are willing to ignore that take on vampires as opposed to the Spike/Blade style of vampire is a bit telling.

 

[Charlaquin]

Inccubi exist so that overprotective parents can excuse the habits of their daughters and be able to essentially sell them for better dowries.

Ok, but again, this doesn’t have the history of uncritical parroting that orcs do.

And the Orcs-as-primitive-savages hasn't? I've seen plenty of worlds where Orcs are perfectly normal. (as much as a fantasy race can be when you don't want them to be essentially differently colored humans and thus potentially boring) See Eberron and it's "Orcs as the primary adversaries to mindbending cosmic horrors ready and willing to use everything in a horrific science experiment" take on Orcs.

Progress is being made on that front, sure, but very few people dispute that Dracula was kinda racist, whereas here we are 18 pages deep into arguing about it with orcs, and this happens every time it gets brought up. That’s why I don’t buy Son of Serpant’s assertion that calling out the issue doesn’t help. It absolutely has helped in other cases, such as this one.

Fair, but again, the fact that you are willing to ignore that take on vampires as opposed to the Spike/Blade style of vampire is a bit telling.

Spike seems like a weird choice to go to for this - he was a very clear example of the vampire as allegory for abusive relationship, and the show never... fully excused him for that. They did try to soften him a bit in the final season, and I have mixed feelings about his portrayal in that season, but at least the closest thing he got to a tender scene with Buffy only occurred after he acknowledged how he had wronged her and made clear that he didn’t expect to be forgiven, and it was still pretty uncomfortable. Blade is just straight-up vampire-as-power-fantasy. He’s also explicitly not a full vampire, and indeed hunts and kills the more traditional sexual predatory allegory vampires, which are presented as evil. I think a better example of where the vampire-as-sexual-predator allegory ends up having iffy implications is something like Twilight, where the sexually predatory aspect is not only excused but in fact presented as alluring, and the character made a protagonist and love interest not only in spite of these traits but in part because of them. And, well, yeah, that’s pretty gross.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Progress is being made on that front, sure, but very few people dispute that Dracula was kinda racist, whereas here we are 18 pages deep into arguing about it with orcs, and this happens every time it gets brought up. That’s why I don’t buy Son of Serpant’s assertion that calling out the issue doesn’t help. It absolutely has helped in other cases, such as this one.

I think that's because basically whenever Orcs are mentioned, even with them in a positive light, people come in and say "Y'know orcs were originally based on old racial stereotypes right?" and when someone says that they aren't using them in that light and they are just another fantasy race in their world the same people come in and say "Okay but they actually are racist no matter what you do with them."

And yes, social justice is important, but people are changing on this front, and bringing it up basically every time the concept of monstrous races comes up despite the fact that things are changing in a good way (Look at how discredited the Always X Evil trope has become recently for an example) just serves to muddy the discussion and entrench people in beliefs that you want them to change.

 

[Hussar]

But, that's not what's happening here @FlyingChihuahua. @Oofta's orcs aren't using them in a new light at all. He's using them in the full on stereotype - all orcs are evil and it's okay to kill them.

If we want to talk about Eberron's orcs, cool. Groovy. That's taking the very prevalent stereotype and turning it on its head. Orcs in Eberron are not brutish and evil. They might be a bit.... aggressive? but they certainly aren't the problematic version of orcs.

No one has come in and talked about how it used to be. We're talking about how it's being used RIGHT NOW. Because @Oofta's orcs aren't "just another fantasy race". They are always evil. They are all wearing the "kill me" sign. It's perfectly acceptable to kill them and take their stuff because they're Eeeeeeviiiil.

Which is the problematic trope to a T.

I'm not sure why you're defending this frankly. You recognize the problematic elements of the trope, yet for some reason refuse to apply them here.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Lol...Its like this conversation is about to grow an emergent consciousness independant of the individual posters but keeps just barely falling short of the jump to become self aware.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

So i was curious just how far weve strayed. I decided to check back to the original post which i remembered actually detailing the intent of the thread because i vaguely remembered it but couldnt remember it precisely at this point (its been a while).

"What DnD tropes get whatever thing they're about wrong, in your opinion?

Keep in mind:

This thread is not about what mechanical things in dnd annoy you.

This thread is not about pet peeves in how worlds are designed, though there is overlap there.

What this thread is about it what things everyone seems to agree on with regard to dnd that you think are dead wrong."

Doesnt look like its supposed to be political at all. It looks like its actually asking what things peeve us because we dont think they are accurate. Kinda vague about it but its clearly not political sounding.

Since "correct" orcs are probably the ones people ARE peeved about i have to (laughingly) say it seems as if the "corrupted and inherently (at least leaning as a group with exceptional individuals) evil orcs are essentially "correct" in the way that the post was asking about.

Awkward.

@doctorbadwolf can correct me if im wrong. This is not a critique of the conversation beimg had for the record.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Ok, but again, this doesn’t have the history of uncritical parroting that orcs do.


Progress is being made on that front, sure, but very few people dispute that Dracula was kinda racist, whereas here we are 18 pages deep into arguing about it with orcs, and this happens every time it gets brought up. That’s why I don’t buy Son of Serpant’s assertion that calling out the issue doesn’t help. It absolutely has helped in other cases, such as this one.


Spike seems like a weird choice to go to for this - he was a very clear example of the vampire as allegory for abusive relationship, and the show never... fully excused him for that. They did try to soften him a bit in the final season, and I have mixed feelings about his portrayal in that season, but at least the closest thing he got to a tender scene with Buffy only occurred after he acknowledged how he had wronged her and made clear that he didn’t expect to be forgiven, and it was still pretty uncomfortable. Blade is just straight-up vampire-as-power-fantasy. He’s also explicitly not a full vampire, and indeed hunts and kills the more traditional sexual predatory allegory vampires, which are presented as evil. I think a better example of where the vampire-as-sexual-predator allegory ends up having iffy implications is something like Twilight, where the sexually predatory aspect is not only excused but in fact presented as alluring, and the character made a protagonist and love interest not only in spite of these traits but in part because of them. And, well, yeah, that’s pretty gross.

Ill just have to agree to disagree with you on progress being made via that method as i dont think that method has done so.

 

[Charlaquin]

Dr badwplf can correct me if im wrong. This is not a critique of the conversation beimg had for the record.

For some reason i cant "@" him...huh...

It’s cause it’s doctor, not dr

 

[Son of the Serpent]

It’s cause it’s doctor, not dr

ah. thankyou very much.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

But, that's not what's happening here @FlyingChihuahua. @Oofta's orcs aren't using them in a new light at all. He's using them in the full on stereotype - all orcs are evil and it's okay to kill them.

If we want to talk about Eberron's orcs, cool. Groovy. That's taking the very prevalent stereotype and turning it on its head. Orcs in Eberron are not brutish and evil. They might be a bit.... aggressive? but they certainly aren't the problematic version of orcs.

No one has come in and talked about how it used to be. We're talking about how it's being used RIGHT NOW. Because @Oofta's orcs aren't "just another fantasy race". They are always evil. They are all wearing the "kill me" sign. It's perfectly acceptable to kill them and take their stuff because they're Eeeeeeviiiil.

Which is the problematic trope to a T.

I'm not sure why you're defending this frankly. You recognize the problematic elements of the trope, yet for some reason refuse to apply them here.

I just don't think crapping all over someone for what is ultimately something that is confined to a small group of people (Oofta's game I mean) is the most productive way of doing things. The chance of his game being made into something major is quite low, so ultimately these shots in the "culture war" are ultimately completely worthless.

Best I (and ya'll) can do is inform him and move on with your life. Maybe have a discussion, but both sides seem to have their minds made up, so ultimately the discussion is going to go absolutely nowhere and just end up with people hating each other, which I'm pretty sure nobody wants. (but you might just be trolling for people to put on your ignore list which I can't help you with).

But maybe I'm just some jerk defending a bigot, who know. Truth is a lie and everything is subjective and ultimately this discussion means absolutely nothing.