D&D 5E (+)What Ubiquitous DnD Tropes Get It Totally Wrong?

[Son of the Serpent]

I disagree. Again, in a deterministic universe humans make choices but lack free will, so I don’t think your position here holds water.


Again, I don’t agree here. If they will never make a choice, I don’t think it is accurate to say they can make that choice. If it is indeed possible for them to make that choice, then a lawful good demon should be a valid possibility. If it is not a valid possibility, then it is not true that they can make that choice.


But if their will is free, then there must be the possibility of an instance of one acting contrary. It becomes a valid option for, say, an adventure featuring a lawful good demon ally.


Observational experiments? We’re talking about fictional characters. We must assume that if something is possible within the fiction, a writer can (and probably will) explore that possibility.


Right, and what we know through out of game information is that demons are always chaotic evil, barring exceptional magical intervention.


I strongly disagree. Actors are responsible for their decisions, even if those decisions are arrived at deterministically.

Thats like saying its a cars fault that they ran someone over. Vicious murder cars everywhere.

 

[Bohandas]

In any case "free will" is a vague weasel word invented by theologians to obfuscate the Problem of Evil

 

[Charlaquin]

Thats like saying its a cars fault that they ran someone over. Vicious murder cars everywhere.

Cars aren’t self-aware.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

if your brain is entirely deterministic you have never truly made a choice in your life

You are like an automobile

An automaton

Robot

Modrons are horrible exemplars

...

...or are they ?

I said the modron thing as a joke but it is actually somewhat of a point

 

[Bohandas]

Thats like saying its a cars fault that they ran someone over. Vicious murder cars everywhere.

Its more like saying that a self-driving car is at fault that it ran someone over.

Or saying that a defective tire that suddenly popped is at fault for your regular car crashing

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Cars aren’t self-aware.

Thats part of my point

Yes

If a world is truly deterministic then self awareness doesnt really matter because it is itself just a physocal quality that is deterministic

 

[Charlaquin]

Also cant =/= wont

It WILL NOT

Also it can.

It can’t though. It’s not a valid possibility if it will never.

Also constrained is free. I dont subscribe to the idea that its not. You can freely choose undesirable things.

I think you’re using a different definition of constrained than I am here. I don’t mean constrained as in “some options are undesirable” i mean it as in “some options are unavailable.”

Now, about "choices in a deterministic world". I love the falacy people make here. Im a neurophysicist so this sort of thing is pretty amusing to me but also pretty sad. Choice in a deterministic world doesnt exist any more than will. And choice, btw is just a subtype of will. Pretty much. The reason people still believe (often highly educated people) that choice exists even when free will doesnt is because they forget that even what they choose is done entirely by physical processes that are deterministic in some sense.

Oh no, I am well aware that my choices are made deterministically.

What you have is a pleasant delusion of the ability to make choices. You always wpuld have chosen the thing you did at the particular moment you did so. Sorry. (Really i am. I think this idea is pretty tragic).

I have a pleasant delusion of free will. I still make choices. The choices I will make are predetermined, but I still have the awareness and experience of making them. My will is not free, but I am still making choices according to deterministic laws, which makes me responsible for the outcomes of the choices I make, even if I could not have made different ones.

Basically "people" dont really exist if there is a deterministic world.

...You have an interesting definition of “people,” then.

Just wet circuit boards. And you cant get mad at circuit boarss for being racist without being gigantically ironic.

Who’s mad at circuit boards for being racist?

At that point this whole tabula rasa argument about races and free will becomes silly. Might as well stay away from arguments that involve a fully deterministic world. A lot of these argumenta all become valid in the same instant you adopt that view.

The paragraph directly above of course o ly applies if you do indeed believe in a deterministic world.

Determinism is really only being used here as an example of how choices and will are not the same thing.

 

[Charlaquin]

Thats part of my point

Yes

If a world is truly deterministic then self awareness doesnt really matter because it is itself just a physocal quality that is deterministic

Interesting claim. Why does a phenomenon being deterministic make it not matter?

 

[Charlaquin]

Listen, I'm done. @Charlaquin I really did mean to answer your post but I'm just tired of the attacks because I run orcs as described in the monster manual.

Sorry to hear that, I would have been interested to see your response. But I understand needing to step away from the conversation. If you feel up to it later, you’re welcome to bring the point back up, or DM me about it, but I understand if you would rather not.

 

[Morrus]

Literally quote where someone said that it’s okay for demons and devils to be evil because they aren’t humans.
You know damn well that claim is BS.

You are again creating false positions to assign to people so that you can trounce a weak argument. It is dishonest, and you know it.

Argue the point; don't namecall.