D&D 5E (+)What Ubiquitous DnD Tropes Get It Totally Wrong?

[doctorbadwolf]

FR and Eberron are not D&D. It's been stated repeatedly that it's okay for demons and devils to be evil because they are not human.

Orcs are no more human than fiends.

Literally quote where someone said that it’s okay for demons and devils to be evil because they aren’t humans.
You know damn well that claim is BS.

You are again creating false positions to assign to people so that you can trounce a weak argument. It is dishonest, and you know it.

 

[Oofta]

Depends on the setting, really. At any rate, all humanoids have something in common that human-looking outsiders do not: they are all native to the material plane.


Ok, but then it’s you who is choosing to ignore a commonality that exists between humans and orcs that does not exist between humans and demons (or orcs and demons). Your claim that orcs are no more human than demons are is demonstrably not supported by the text.

You've decided that it's relevant to you, to me it's not. That's all.

I simply don't see how it's particularly relevant. Being bipedal, having a language and culture ... it's kind of the lowest common denominator for a lot of creatures. Stone giants would qualify as an example, as would most fey. They don't though because there's a more specific classification.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I don’t know that I agree with this, but fortunately I don’t think it’s crucial to the argument.


Is freedom of choice the same thing as free will, though? In a deterministic world free will can’t exist but people can still be said to make choices.


If demon WILL NOT choose to behave contrary to its nature, can it truly be said that it CAN choose to do so? I would argue no. And if it can’t choose to behave contrary to its nature, can its will truly be said to be free? Again, I would say no. Perhaps it could be said that they have... constrained will? Limited will? But not free in my assessment.

Tbh, it was supposed to say "freedom of will"

But fundementally, yes. They are identical.

And yes. It can be said that they can choose something contrary to their nature. But WONT. The fact that its 100% of the time doesnt technically mean a confirmation of the lack of free will. It actually just means there are no instances of them acting contrary.

It is not testable by observational experiments because of how consistantly this is the case. Thats unfortunate, but not evidence of a lack of free will. Its evidence that EITHER of the options are possible but deciding which through testing is the actual case is impossible. Its only due to the definitive information we have oog that is declarative in nature that we know which is true. The way they are described is not lacking free will but instead being a will that is X way.

Also, if they DIDN'T have free will they wouldnt be a perfect expression of any alignment. Even TN.

 

[Oofta]

Listen, I'm done. @Charlaquin I really did mean to answer your post but I'm just tired of the attacks because I run orcs as described in the monster manual.

 

[Charlaquin]

Literally quote where someone said that it’s okay for demons and devils to be evil because they aren’t humans.
You know damn well that claim is BS.

You are again creating false positions to assign to people so that you can trounce a weak argument. It is dishonest, and you know it.

I am generally in agreement with you in this discussion, but I don’t think telling people they “know (something) damn well” and in the same breath admonishing them for assigning positions to others that they don’t hold is helpful.

 

[Charlaquin]

You've decided that it's relevant to you, to me it's not. That's all.

Its relevant to the mechanics of the game. You’re free to ignore it if you want, but that’s not a strong position from which to argue about the game’s treatment of the race.

I simply don't see how it's particularly relevant. Being bipedal, having a language and culture ... it's kind of the lowest common denominator for a lot of creatures.

Indeed, lower even than being humanoid, because those are traits shared by creatures that lack the humanoid subtype.

Stone giants would qualify as an example, as would most fey. They don't though because there's a more specific classification.

In other words, they have less in common with human than orcs do.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I don’t know that I agree with this, but fortunately I don’t think it’s crucial to the argument.


Is freedom of choice the same thing as free will, though? In a deterministic world free will can’t exist but people can still be said to make choices.


If demon WILL NOT choose to behave contrary to its nature, can it truly be said that it CAN choose to do so? I would argue no. And if it can’t choose to behave contrary to its nature, can its will truly be said to be free? Again, I would say no. Perhaps it could be said that they have... constrained will? Limited will? But not free in my assessment.

Also cant =/= wont

It WILL NOT

Also it can.

Also constrained is free. I dont subscribe to the idea that its not. You can freely choose undesirable things.

Now, about "choices in a deterministic world". I love the falacy people make here. Im a neurophysicist so this sort of thing is pretty amusing to me but also pretty sad. Choice in a deterministic world doesnt exist any more than will. And choice, btw is just a subtype of will. Pretty much. The reason people still believe (often highly educated people) that choice exists even when free will doesnt is because they forget that even what they choose is done entirely by physical processes that are deterministic in some sense. What you have is a pleasant delusion of the ability to make choices. You always wpuld have chosen the thing you did at the particular moment you did so. Sorry. (Really i am. I think this idea is pretty tragic). Basically "people" dont really exist if there is a deterministic world. Just wet circuit boards. And you cant get mad at circuit boarss for being racist without being gigantically ironic. At that point this whole tabula rasa argument about races and free will becomes silly. Might as well stay away from arguments that involve a fully deterministic world. A lot of these argumenta all become valid in the same instant you adopt that view.

The paragraph directly above of course o ly applies if you do indeed believe in a deterministic world.

 

[Bohandas]

From a technical perspective most orcs are less human than many demons because demons derived from human souls are phylogenically related to humans, whereas orcs are not (with the exception of populations where there have been backcrosses with half-orcs)

 

[Son of the Serpent]

From a technical perspective most orcs are less human than many demons because demons derived from human souls are phylogenically related to humans, whereas orcs are not (with the exception of populations where there have been backcrosses with half-orcs)

Huh. This is actually a pretty interesting point. I had not considered this.

 

[Charlaquin]

Tbh, it was supposed to say "freedom of will"

But fundementally, yes. They are identical.

I disagree. Again, in a deterministic universe humans make choices but lack free will, so I don’t think your position here holds water.

And yes. It can be said that they can choose something contrary to their nature. But WONT.

Again, I don’t agree here. If they will never make a choice, I don’t think it is accurate to say they can make that choice. If it is indeed possible for them to make that choice, then a lawful good demon should be a valid possibility. If it is not a valid possibility, then it is not true that they can make that choice.

The fact that its 100% of the time doesnt technically mean a confirmation of the lack of free will. It actually just means there are no instances of them acting contrary.

But if their will is free, then there must be the possibility of an instance of one acting contrary. It becomes a valid option for, say, an adventure featuring a lawful good demon ally.

It is not testable by observational experiments because of how consistantly this is the case. Thats unfortunate, but not evidence of a lack of free will. Its evidence that EITHER of the options are possible but deciding which through testing is the actual case is impossible.

Observational experiments? We’re talking about fictional characters. We must assume that if something is possible within the fiction, a writer can (and probably will) explore that possibility.

Its only due to the definitive information we have oog that is declarative in nature that we know which is true. The way they are described is not lacking free will but instead being a will that is X way.

Right, and what we know through out of game information is that demons are always chaotic evil, barring exceptional magical intervention.

Also, if they DIDN'T have free will they wouldnt be a perfect expression of any alignment. Even TN.

I strongly disagree. Actors are responsible for their decisions, even if those decisions are arrived at deterministically.